I Love PSA
12-05-2013 | 05:07 AM
#3271
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,150
Likes: 0
Because the work rules are GOOD! Our contract isn't bad. The only item in it that cause the blow ups is the pay caps. Other than that, our contract changed 0. We aren't the worst paid at all, and certainly have better working rules including a schedule adjustment period (which most airlines lack) and other provisions that are industry standard if not better. Everyone is / will have trouble staffing.
Look through this entire thread. Everything revolves around one thing- the pay caps, where FOs were capped a mere buck and change, and in turn will now upgrade faster and see much better QOL. There's NOTHING in this thread about work rules or actual "contractual" rules since - ours is actually good. The pay caps, yes, that's the debatable issue. But no one has yet to pick anything out of our actual contract and argue as "bad". There's nothing in there that isn't either standard or better. Dropping trips regardless of coverage down to 65 hours? There are junior line holders crediting over guarantee with 17 days off this month including Christmas. Life ain't bad over here folks. Pay caps, an understandable tough point. But.....there's nothing else. So don't flame the entire contract (probably because it's better than yours).
Look through this entire thread. Everything revolves around one thing- the pay caps, where FOs were capped a mere buck and change, and in turn will now upgrade faster and see much better QOL. There's NOTHING in this thread about work rules or actual "contractual" rules since - ours is actually good. The pay caps, yes, that's the debatable issue. But no one has yet to pick anything out of our actual contract and argue as "bad". There's nothing in there that isn't either standard or better. Dropping trips regardless of coverage down to 65 hours? There are junior line holders crediting over guarantee with 17 days off this month including Christmas. Life ain't bad over here folks. Pay caps, an understandable tough point. But.....there's nothing else. So don't flame the entire contract (probably because it's better than yours).
12-05-2013 | 05:19 AM
#3272
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
From: Grounded
I will wait to see what your announcement for next week will be but in the meantime, take a look at these:
For some reason, your attitude is what I think might be getting under everyone's skin. Did you ever check for your name in the bathroom?
Hopefully, whatever management promised you guys they can deliver.
I agree with a lot of what you say, with the difference that while yes, it was selfish....I cannot be a martyr. I have a mortgage. BILLs. And a career. It sucks, but I cannot worry myself about how my vote will affect people 20 years from now. It's my job...my paycheck. Selfish yes. Practical...you bet.
Hopefully, whatever management promised you guys they can deliver.
12-05-2013 | 06:14 AM
#3273
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
From: Left
I don't think anyone here, ever, has said our contract is top of the industry. There is some good, and definitely some bad. This is true of every contract yes? Movable days off???? There isn't one bad thing in our contract I'd give away to get movable days off added.
This being said I want to ask 3 questions:
1. If our contract is sooooooo bad and is causing so much strife in current negotiations why haven't we been taking heat since April when we signed it? Everyone was congratulating us on getting a pretty good deal. Yes the caps suck, but pay is only one part of the total cost of a contract.
2. Why is it ok for everyone to "predict" the next 9/11, recession, industry downturn but its not ok for someone to "predict" a string of good, profitable years for airlines in general?
3. If these 30 acft are growth and they arrive in a reasonable time frame will this have been an acceptable gamble?
This being said I want to ask 3 questions:
1. If our contract is sooooooo bad and is causing so much strife in current negotiations why haven't we been taking heat since April when we signed it? Everyone was congratulating us on getting a pretty good deal. Yes the caps suck, but pay is only one part of the total cost of a contract.
2. Why is it ok for everyone to "predict" the next 9/11, recession, industry downturn but its not ok for someone to "predict" a string of good, profitable years for airlines in general?
3. If these 30 acft are growth and they arrive in a reasonable time frame will this have been an acceptable gamble?
12-05-2013 | 06:21 AM
#3274
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
From: rabble rouser
Well aside from HOT reserve for 8 hours. Longest in the industry.
Duty rigs that still haven't come into effect. And when they do they are really only valid on day 2 and 3 of a 4 day.
Our critical pay which hasn't come into effect either.
Min day off per month is 11 days. Most airlines are 12. This month i got 12.
Vacation is lacking. Reality is that 1 week of vacation = a drop of a 4 day trip.
So really if a pilot is getting 2 weeks vacation then the company is giving them 8 days off in a year.
No holiday pay.
Pay caps.
Now this contract is valid for 10 years.
YEA ALPA
Duty rigs that still haven't come into effect. And when they do they are really only valid on day 2 and 3 of a 4 day.
Our critical pay which hasn't come into effect either.
Min day off per month is 11 days. Most airlines are 12. This month i got 12.
Vacation is lacking. Reality is that 1 week of vacation = a drop of a 4 day trip.
So really if a pilot is getting 2 weeks vacation then the company is giving them 8 days off in a year.
No holiday pay.
Pay caps.
Now this contract is valid for 10 years.
YEA ALPA
12-05-2013 | 06:51 AM
#3276
Underpaid...
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,101
Likes: 0
From: French-Canadian
I don't think anyone here, ever, has said our contract is top of the industry. There is some good, and definitely some bad. This is true of every contract yes? Movable days off???? There isn't one bad thing in our contract I'd give away to get movable days off added.
This being said I want to ask 3 questions:
1. If our contract is sooooooo bad and is causing so much strife in current negotiations why haven't we been taking heat since April when we signed it? Everyone was congratulating us on getting a pretty good deal. Yes the caps suck, but pay is only one part of the total cost of a contract.
2. Why is it ok for everyone to "predict" the next 9/11, recession, industry downturn but its not ok for someone to "predict" a string of good, profitable years for airlines in general?
3. If these 30 acft are growth and they arrive in a reasonable time frame will this have been an acceptable gamble?
This being said I want to ask 3 questions:
1. If our contract is sooooooo bad and is causing so much strife in current negotiations why haven't we been taking heat since April when we signed it? Everyone was congratulating us on getting a pretty good deal. Yes the caps suck, but pay is only one part of the total cost of a contract.
2. Why is it ok for everyone to "predict" the next 9/11, recession, industry downturn but its not ok for someone to "predict" a string of good, profitable years for airlines in general?
3. If these 30 acft are growth and they arrive in a reasonable time frame will this have been an acceptable gamble?
People have issues with the contract but the major heartburn is the principal.
I do agree that if you guys grow or even hold the same size with attrition new hires will likely not be affected by the cap, they will however be affected by not being able to adjust their contract for 10 years, increase in insurance premiums, and incase in COL. Don't forget that these caps and lower pay will be taken into account when the LCC and Legacy carriers renegotiate contracts. It's closer that you might think as Delta has 2 ½ years I believe, United has a little more, Spirit is coming up, JetBlue is flux and American is working on a new CBA.
The main problem with your contract was the principal of accepting concessions, forgoing future gains in exchange of the possibility of new airplanes while the company is making record profits and it's forecasting to increase them all the meanwhile they are re fleeting their regional feed.
12-05-2013 | 06:53 AM
#3277
Underpaid...
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,101
Likes: 0
From: French-Canadian
Was it the same coverage? What happened to your copay? What will happen in 2015 if the premium rise? Even if they are lower you are still paying more for insurance than you did in 2013. And IIRC your insurance premiums % have a gradual increase.
12-05-2013 | 06:58 AM
#3278
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
From: The right seat
Terrible. Just terrible!!
12-05-2013 | 07:06 AM
#3279
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
From: Left
So you feel it's ok for a pilot group to take concessions to gain new aircraft? So what if management comes back to Eagle and asks for concessions for future aircraft to undercut you all? What if they come to SKYW or XJT pilots and promise growth to undercut you all and the Eagle guys? When does it stop? When we all fly for free?
Terrible. Just terrible!!
Terrible. Just terrible!!
This doesn't help anyone and is the reason this board is the **** fest it is.
12-05-2013 | 07:08 AM
#3280
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
From: Left
You seem to forget that while insurance premiums rise you are now taking on an even larger share of the premium, doesn't matter what your pay or rigs are since this will be coming off your bottom line. This can amount to more than 1k a year, also you guys changed your perdium and capped your pay. You are missing the whole point, if this contract was voted in by Eagle or Pinnacle while under Ch11 it would have been a cause for relief in the industry. But the problem is that you voted in this contract less than 6 months after you signed a new contract with some improvements, your company is making record profits, hard to find pilots and your company is estimating an increase win over 1billion in profits in the next 2-3 years. This is where the heartburn comes from, a profitable pilot group working for a profitable company takes concessions while everyone else is trying to improve their pay.
People have issues with the contract but the major heartburn is the principal.
I do agree that if you guys grow or even hold the same size with attrition new hires will likely not be affected by the cap, they will however be affected by not being able to adjust their contract for 10 years, increase in insurance premiums, and incase in COL. Don't forget that these caps and lower pay will be taken into account when the LCC and Legacy carriers renegotiate contracts. It's closer that you might think as Delta has 2 ½ years I believe, United has a little more, Spirit is coming up, JetBlue is flux and American is working on a new CBA.
The main problem with your contract was the principal of accepting concessions, forgoing future gains in exchange of the possibility of new airplanes while the company is making record profits and it's forecasting to increase them all the meanwhile they are re fleeting their regional feed.
People have issues with the contract but the major heartburn is the principal.
I do agree that if you guys grow or even hold the same size with attrition new hires will likely not be affected by the cap, they will however be affected by not being able to adjust their contract for 10 years, increase in insurance premiums, and incase in COL. Don't forget that these caps and lower pay will be taken into account when the LCC and Legacy carriers renegotiate contracts. It's closer that you might think as Delta has 2 ½ years I believe, United has a little more, Spirit is coming up, JetBlue is flux and American is working on a new CBA.
The main problem with your contract was the principal of accepting concessions, forgoing future gains in exchange of the possibility of new airplanes while the company is making record profits and it's forecasting to increase them all the meanwhile they are re fleeting their regional feed.
Can you please explain the 1k/year thing with some math? Because that is not how i figure it but I am wrong.....a lot.
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