ZapBrannigan

What do you suggest an alternative? I agree that there just aren't check haulers anymore. But back in the day that was how we built time, and the experience we gained flying IFR, at night, in marginal equipment, in winter ice and summer thunderstorms undoubtedly made us better pilots. It taught us to know when it was time to tell the boss "No". We learned from good decisions and bad. We had some close calls and some scares and expanded the envelope in which we were comfortable operating. So when we finally had the 1500TT and 500ME that were typical minimums for the regionals in the mid 1990s, we started the job - still as newbies - but as pilots who had seen a thing or two. So the step from that Baron or Cessna 402 to a Jetstream or Beech 1900 wasn't that big of a leap.

Today the expectation is to go from piston single to high performance 100 passenger jetliner. Training in and of itself isn't built to do that. Training is supposed to be a bridge between expected performance and actual performance. Even the best training the world can't train experience. There has to be some period of time between 250 hours and (?) during which pilots take sole responsibility for the operation. Time for them to see some bad weather, some wet runways, some ice, some mechanical failures. Time for them to make some tough choices because there's nobody else to make those choices for them.

I agree that 1500 hours is a random number plucked out of thin air. So maybe that's not the right metric. But I firmly believe that there should be SOME metric, if not flight time.

IamEssential

That's your problem, you think of flying as only burning holes in the sky. Is CFI/MEI/CFII experience more valuable than flying a crapped out Cherokee with somebody while trading off being "safety pilot". Of course, but that is for the Regional's to decide in their hiring process. Even by your most restrictive interpretation of what a CFI does (you ever been one?) that is still 1200 hours of PIC experience and (what Regionals love to see) teaching experience.

Your other problem is that you think 1500 hours was just picked out of the air. You are wrong again. What does that number represent? Can you take a guess? Let me help you out, it represents another year or two of flying before you are flying 70 pax in the back. Do you want somebody who first touched a Cessna 6 months ago flying your kids or somebody who already has 1.5 to 2.5 years of flying experience.

Tjeff

I think whenever this topic comes up it almost immediately goes to the extreme assumption of well 1000 hours in a pattern doesn’t really give you valuable experience or VFR this or that etc. Well there is still some experience gained, decision making and basic airmanship, you are going to end up with more approaches and landings with 1500 vs 250 hours.

My main point is a lot of people don’t just poke holes in the sky. Most people I knew worked professional jobs, lots of cfis, surveying, 91 charter ops etc. For me as a cfi it was invaluable experience I wouldn’t have gotten at 250 hours. I didn’t even know I wasn’t ready, the idea of a RJ was intimidating but if someone offered me that job or said you can CFI for the next 18 months, even the next 6 I would’ve picked the RJ in a heartbeat and I know most of my colleagues would have also. It does cast a net, it does help weed out people, this job is easy but it’s also tough especially starting out. Just basic dedication to get 1500 hours and putting in the work to find the right job let alone what that job can do for you once you arrive at the 121 world. It’s not like 90% of the pilots are just poking holes in the skies on beautiful days to get to 1500. Most people I know don’t have the money to buy a plane and gas even a cheap one! So yes, are there people that gain little to no experience from 250 to 1500 hours, probably but I would guess not very many.

That all being said I would still make it more around 750 or 1000 hours total time with more stringent requirements such as 100-150 multi, complex time, x amount of IFR time, logged approaches etc. That would help increase the quality of experience.

SonicFlyer

Also the 1500 hour rule makes us less safe.

The regionals are now desperate to hire anyone who can walk in the door and fog a mirror because of the artificial scarcity it created. So yeah, the quality of a regional FO has decreased despite the requirements increasing (that's how government "works")

IamEssential

Definitely safer when desperate airlines hire 1500 hour 2 - 3 year pilots instead of 250 hour 6-month wonders.

Tjeff

I don’t necessarily understand this? Wouldn’t they hire the same subpar 1500 hour pilot at 250 hours? I mean I think the amount of experience gained by a majority of pilots helps them get ready for the 121 world. There will always be people who slip through the cracks whether it’s at 250, 1500 or 5000 hours.

TiredSoul

1. I’ve been an Instructor Part 61, Chief Flight Instructor/Asst Chief Flight Instructor/Check Instructor Part 141 for a decent amount of time.
PIC? Yes, legally it is. Even when you’re on left downwind again for the 10,000th time this year.

2. Your second argument goes askew again as it’s a hiring requirement and there is training and testing and a type ratings and you’re certainly not the PIC for at least 1000 hrs SIC 121.

So what do you think makes the difference?
Your 1000 hrs CFI PIC or the 1000 hrs 121 SIC?
I think the latter.

IamEssential

1. Then I am confused at your "burning holes in the sky" analogy. How did you become a chief instructor if that is what you think being a CFI is? Never mind, from some of the horrible Chief instructors I have seen I can see why. At most places it is not the most qualified but who you know who gets hired.

2. I am also confused at the point you are trying to make. Why are you trying to compare hiring and upgrade requirements? I'd be vary wary of upgrading somebody who has 1000 SIC time and only 1250 TT. That CA is a disaster waiting to happen. On average the 1000SIC 2500TT makes a much better and stronger CA candidate.

wingtipwalker

I don't disagree with that. Perhaps in a theoretical FAA-MPL scenario you would have to get 1000 hours 121 time once your MPL converts to an ATP (at 1500 hours, so 2500 TT)

I am with the Chief above that the quality of the 1500 hours that some people get varies wildly. Teaching to 1500 hours at a Part 61 school in rural Ohio is not the same as teaching at a busy 141 school under the Bravo in Phoenix. And let's not even touch the fact that a lot of people are fine pilots, but terrible teachers. Making everybody be a CFI probably hurts quality of instruction overall. In my experience all CFI's get this blank soul-crushed hopeless stare in the 1000-1500 hour range. That's not good either.

The 1500 is so arbitrary. If 1500 is good, wouldn't 3000 be better? Or is 1500 twice as "safe" as 750? Or what is a Riddle kid learning in their 141 program that makes them eligible to get an R-ATP after 1000 hours that a non-university 141 graduate doesn't get? Is the FAA-Approved 141 syllabus at the non-university materially inferior to the FAA-Approved 141 syllabus at Riddle?

I am certain that you can consistently train a ~300 hour MPL pilot that can perform at or above the level of a 1500 hour CFI. Japan Airlines does it. Etihad and Emirates do it. Those airlines are not deathtraps.

As a pilot who now has run the 1500 hour rule gauntlet, there are plenty of selfish reasons to keep it in place. But I don't think it actually makes anybody safer.

TiredSoul

1. I’d suggest you go back and read the entire thread again and what I’ve posted.

2. You’ve been insinuating that even a properly trained pilot is unsafe because they haven’t reached an arbitrary number.
They’re not the only pilot in the cockpit and out of the two of them our hero is NOT the PIC and they won’t be for at least another 1000hrs in airline operations.

I became a Chief Flight Instructor around 2500hrs dual given. What did you do?
You were still looking to share time building a year ago lol….

Well said, thank you.

A system that takes complexity into account would be superior.
Points per hour.
Private doodling - 1 point
IFR - 2 points
CFI dual given - 2 points
Banner towing - 1 point
Dropping bodies - 2 points
Anything above in a ME - add a point

135 VFR SE - 5 points
135 IFR ME piston -7 points
135 IFR ME Jet - 10 points
Added complexity points for geographic regions.
etc etc etc.

Majors require a minimum of 2500 turbo jet and 1000 PIC and 500 ME and 15,000 points.
Will never work because of ICAO but it’s an idea to mentally play around with.