How long till this feeling dies???
03-09-2008, 02:05 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 585
I'm quite familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and the research surrounding it. "Getting laid" is not part of the pyramid for all people, nor is having a roof over one's head, “the stars are my roof”. Having a bunch of rugrats with a white picket fence is part of some folks’ pyramid. It is that certain things for me are not as important as others. If it were only about food and shelter, I would have never walked away from a very good paying IT job to become a flight instructor. I'm no Buddha or Mother Teresa, nor do I desire to be them. I do need to do more than slouch in front of the TV all day drinking beer to drown my sorrows while collecting a welfare check.
Hindsight’s argument appears to claim I want folks to work for free because one loves the job. This is false. I love my work and do not work for free. Further, I’m *really* expensive and regularly turn away those that think I should teach them to fly for free. I do not think anyone should work for free. Even volunteer work has compensation of some kind.
Next, Hindsight states that one can not enjoy nor fulfill one’s basic needs with a regional airline pilot job unless they are in the sole situation of a young twenty-something with no family. The second argument is false as I’m not a twenty-something and I’m able to fulfill both basic and advanced needs with the airline job on first year FO pay. However, I didn’t even apply to those places that treat their people like dirt, nor would require a cross-US commute. I didn’t bother thinking about airlines or anything else until I had enough passive income to meet all of my needs and they’d be able to provide a benefit beyond flight hours. Further disproving this argument, half of my new-hire class was on their second or third careers, with families.
Self-fulfillment is a journey, not an end.
With that said, I do claim that one way to know how much one loves flying, even with all of the warts of dealing with passengers, crew scheduling, delays, weather, cargo, planes that try to kill you, FAA, and NTSB (hopefully you'll never deal with them!), is to lose flying for awhile, especially if that lose is involuntary. Then you'll know.
Hindsight’s argument appears to claim I want folks to work for free because one loves the job. This is false. I love my work and do not work for free. Further, I’m *really* expensive and regularly turn away those that think I should teach them to fly for free. I do not think anyone should work for free. Even volunteer work has compensation of some kind.
Next, Hindsight states that one can not enjoy nor fulfill one’s basic needs with a regional airline pilot job unless they are in the sole situation of a young twenty-something with no family. The second argument is false as I’m not a twenty-something and I’m able to fulfill both basic and advanced needs with the airline job on first year FO pay. However, I didn’t even apply to those places that treat their people like dirt, nor would require a cross-US commute. I didn’t bother thinking about airlines or anything else until I had enough passive income to meet all of my needs and they’d be able to provide a benefit beyond flight hours. Further disproving this argument, half of my new-hire class was on their second or third careers, with families.
Self-fulfillment is a journey, not an end.
With that said, I do claim that one way to know how much one loves flying, even with all of the warts of dealing with passengers, crew scheduling, delays, weather, cargo, planes that try to kill you, FAA, and NTSB (hopefully you'll never deal with them!), is to lose flying for awhile, especially if that lose is involuntary. Then you'll know.
03-09-2008, 08:00 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by jedinein
"Getting laid" is not part of the pyramid for all people, nor is having a roof over one's head, “the stars are my roof”.
OK, so sex might not be a priority for some, but you are saying having a roof over your head is not essential?
It is that certain things for me are not as important as others.
Well, I agree we all have different priorities, but the point is that SOME things are top priority for ALL of us.. those some things being food, water and shelter. You can't argue with basic human physiological needs, which make up the fundamentals of the pyramid.
If it were only about food and shelter, I would have never walked away from a very good paying IT job to become a flight instructor.
But no one said it's ONLY about food and shelter! You say you are familiar, then you should know Maslow says nothing about the importance of only one thing. It's the ORDER in which we need those needs met. Enjoyment of your job is important obviously, the pyramid doesn't refute that at ALL. But all of that job fulfillment stuff comes AFTER food and water. Isn't that common sense? Because without food you would be DEAD! how would you ponder the satisfaction level of your job at that point?
Next, Hindsight states that one can not enjoy nor fulfill one’s basic needs with a regional airline pilot job unless they are in the sole situation of a young twenty-something with no family. The second argument is false as I’m not a twenty-something and I’m able to fulfill both basic and advanced needs with the airline job on first year FO pay.
Well, you said you have multiple streams of income. That means you're NOT fulfilling "both basic and advanced needs" solely on first year FO pay. Age has nothing to do with it, it was only mentioned because 20-somethings usually have no other mouths to feed than their own, and no financial obligations. On a side note, I'm just curious... how are you flying for an airline and also flight instructing? is it just ground school? Because all the regionals I know of prohibit flying commercially on the side. I would love to do some other part 91 flying on the side for fun and additional income but it's not allowed at my company.
Further disproving this argument, half of my new-hire class was on their second or third careers, with families.
I'm willing to bet those older folks with families who are on their second or third careers are able to get by only because they saved up tons from their previous jobs before getting into this biz or their wives have lucrative careers. I know a few myself... there was an older dude in my class who had a pension from his first career and didn't need the money... there was another older dude in the same class who used to own a profitable business and didn't need the money. In any case, it's not the wage from the regional job that's supporting them. i.e., it's other sources, not the regional job, that is fulfilling their basic needs.
Self-fulfillment is a journey, not an end.
uhm, OK.. I agree... I'm not sure how this statement pertains to our argument at hand.
With that said, I do claim that one way to know how much one loves flying, even with all of the warts of dealing with passengers, crew scheduling, delays, weather, cargo, planes that try to kill you, FAA, and NTSB (hopefully you'll never deal with them!), is to lose flying for awhile, especially if that lose is involuntary. Then you'll know.
OK, so sex might not be a priority for some, but you are saying having a roof over your head is not essential?
It is that certain things for me are not as important as others.
Well, I agree we all have different priorities, but the point is that SOME things are top priority for ALL of us.. those some things being food, water and shelter. You can't argue with basic human physiological needs, which make up the fundamentals of the pyramid.
If it were only about food and shelter, I would have never walked away from a very good paying IT job to become a flight instructor.
But no one said it's ONLY about food and shelter! You say you are familiar, then you should know Maslow says nothing about the importance of only one thing. It's the ORDER in which we need those needs met. Enjoyment of your job is important obviously, the pyramid doesn't refute that at ALL. But all of that job fulfillment stuff comes AFTER food and water. Isn't that common sense? Because without food you would be DEAD! how would you ponder the satisfaction level of your job at that point?
Next, Hindsight states that one can not enjoy nor fulfill one’s basic needs with a regional airline pilot job unless they are in the sole situation of a young twenty-something with no family. The second argument is false as I’m not a twenty-something and I’m able to fulfill both basic and advanced needs with the airline job on first year FO pay.
Well, you said you have multiple streams of income. That means you're NOT fulfilling "both basic and advanced needs" solely on first year FO pay. Age has nothing to do with it, it was only mentioned because 20-somethings usually have no other mouths to feed than their own, and no financial obligations. On a side note, I'm just curious... how are you flying for an airline and also flight instructing? is it just ground school? Because all the regionals I know of prohibit flying commercially on the side. I would love to do some other part 91 flying on the side for fun and additional income but it's not allowed at my company.
Further disproving this argument, half of my new-hire class was on their second or third careers, with families.
I'm willing to bet those older folks with families who are on their second or third careers are able to get by only because they saved up tons from their previous jobs before getting into this biz or their wives have lucrative careers. I know a few myself... there was an older dude in my class who had a pension from his first career and didn't need the money... there was another older dude in the same class who used to own a profitable business and didn't need the money. In any case, it's not the wage from the regional job that's supporting them. i.e., it's other sources, not the regional job, that is fulfilling their basic needs.
Self-fulfillment is a journey, not an end.
uhm, OK.. I agree... I'm not sure how this statement pertains to our argument at hand.
With that said, I do claim that one way to know how much one loves flying, even with all of the warts of dealing with passengers, crew scheduling, delays, weather, cargo, planes that try to kill you, FAA, and NTSB (hopefully you'll never deal with them!), is to lose flying for awhile, especially if that lose is involuntary. Then you'll know.
03-09-2008, 09:23 PM
#43
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 60
For anyone not familiar with the FRACTIONAL industry.
Starting pay at most is $60K+, and $100k+ after 5 years . You only work 1/2 the year, fly prestine equipment to some interesting places. Management, FBO's, and Hotel personell all treat you with respect. Management's hands are somewhat tied, for no other reason than, if the pilot a'int happy the guy in the back paying millions for an airplane ride a'int happy.
If your worried about the economy this should not be an issue. The people that use private jet travel could afford this luxury if they lost half their wealth tomorrow.
Outsourced flying is unlikely. The pilots make up a large portion of the sales pitch.
http://citationshares.com/about/video.aspx
http://www.netjets.com/Netjets_Exper...ence_Video.asp
Therefore, possibly less expensive charter would only drive the owner away.
In summary
Great Pay/Benefits
Respect from most everyone you deal with.
QOL (knowing your schedule a year in advance)
Nice equipment- Avoiding T'storms by climbing to FL450. what more could you ask for? Oh yeah average equipment age of <3 years.
Interesting destinations- Even this becomes routine. Afterall, how many times can you overnight in Los Cabos, Aspen in the winter, Carlsbad by the beach, Napa Valley during peak season.
For me it's $100 hamburgers all over again. Only this time it's more like $2000 hambugers and someone else is paying the bill.
This post is for anyone that may not be aware such flying exist.
RCA01
Starting pay at most is $60K+, and $100k+ after 5 years . You only work 1/2 the year, fly prestine equipment to some interesting places. Management, FBO's, and Hotel personell all treat you with respect. Management's hands are somewhat tied, for no other reason than, if the pilot a'int happy the guy in the back paying millions for an airplane ride a'int happy.
If your worried about the economy this should not be an issue. The people that use private jet travel could afford this luxury if they lost half their wealth tomorrow.
Outsourced flying is unlikely. The pilots make up a large portion of the sales pitch.
http://citationshares.com/about/video.aspx
http://www.netjets.com/Netjets_Exper...ence_Video.asp
Therefore, possibly less expensive charter would only drive the owner away.
In summary
Great Pay/Benefits
Respect from most everyone you deal with.
QOL (knowing your schedule a year in advance)
Nice equipment- Avoiding T'storms by climbing to FL450. what more could you ask for? Oh yeah average equipment age of <3 years.
Interesting destinations- Even this becomes routine. Afterall, how many times can you overnight in Los Cabos, Aspen in the winter, Carlsbad by the beach, Napa Valley during peak season.
For me it's $100 hamburgers all over again. Only this time it's more like $2000 hambugers and someone else is paying the bill.
This post is for anyone that may not be aware such flying exist.
RCA01
03-09-2008, 10:57 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by ACEAV8R
Who do you work for and what station are you at? I guess you get just as much fun as I do. Not to mention fighting with crew scheduling/dispatch/maint control, dealing with maintenance personnel, working with mainline to try and squeeze 15 aircrafts into 9 gates, and aircraft/crew swaps. Also dealing with my bitter agents, p/oed pax, some crew members that just think we throw bags, scan boarding cards and eat lunch, and being everywhere at once. Oh did I mention there were no hotels in the area and pax aren't gonna fly out for another 3 days. I can't remember the amount of personal law suits and @$$ beatings I have coming for me. All for about 12 bucks an hour. Anyone wanna switch pm me asap. I don't mind being that "low time" pilot who knows nothing because in a few months, I'll no longer be that guy. Everyone must start somewhere. I'll even throw in a vest with a different color from the reg agents so that you are id as the leader.
Carib, I hope the ride doesn't end for you buddy. Fly it till the wings fall off because You'll never miss the water until the well runs dry.
Carib, I hope the ride doesn't end for you buddy. Fly it till the wings fall off because You'll never miss the water until the well runs dry.
) Just to give an example of why I hate my job and wish I was somewhere around FL180-400...Today I start at 11am (this is after 2 days of cxld flights, which happens a lot, due to our snow storm around western ny) and all the flights are oversold and then become weight restricted due to high fuel and baggage, but dispatch just laughs at you when you ask for lower fuel...oh ya and a deadhead just got possitive space to get to training so I got to find another vol and he could care less, but there are no flights out for at least a day or so because every airline is in the same boat. Get done with three oversold over weight flights...get 30mins for dinner around 8pm, got to go to ops and get all the paperwork done for the day which takes another hour, set up the ramp and then its our overnighter gets in around 1020pm. The capt yells at me after parking because there are no lead in lines (THERE ALL COVERED IN ICE AND SNOW we just got a SNOW STORM, HELLO?...he didnt like that answer..oh well that was something I just didnt get around to do today I guess. After that its off to baggage and take around 9-10 claims off a 50 seat jet..not good..and have some idiot yell at me because 1. her bag was not there and 2 there was a child playing on the bag belt....now its my job to babysit too!!!!! After I helped all the happy people in baggage and finshed up it was 2am.....all for $12.00 an hour and 7years on the job....anyone want to trade stick/computer time...let me know......................
03-10-2008, 08:05 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: SAAB
Posts: 300
Skyhigh you're gonna kill yourself at an early age with that attitude. I feel sorry for you. I wish you the best, but I see the writting on the wall. Life is what you make of it. You wanna be crabby, life will give you rotten apples. Yes I've been through Mesaba's Ch11, upgraded-downgraded all the fun stuff.
When I am the only male chaperone amongst "stay at home moms" during my kids field field trip, I feel lucky to have my job. I know I will have given kid great memories and opportunities that none of the kids in his class have ever done. My kid is 7 and has been to Europe 5 times, and all over the United States. How many kids can say that? I work with great people who look out for each other. I don't have worry about a co-worker stabbing me in the back to get the promotion over me. I do my job right, I do it safe and go home with a feeling of accomplishment. I have brothers who make 8times more than me and everytime they see me, they tell me how they envy my job. I could complain about time away from my family, instead I make the best of the time I do have. Plus it's a great amount of time.
To the guy who started this post, live the dream!!! Don't let guys like skyhigh drag you down. They're the ones who sit on the sidelines, ***** and moan and try to drag everyone down. "I'm miserable, everyone else should be to." You'll fly with guys like this to but look at the big picture. They hate being away from home, is it because their spouse doesn't support their dream and makes them feel miserable everytime they head out the door? I'll bet you that is the real reason. Understand these people, learn from them, don't make their mistakes. EVERY job has it's negative issues, if you can't make the best out of it you will never be happy at any job. Look at skyhigh he isn't truly happy at his "other" job, he still misses the cockpit. Check out the number of posts he has here. If this industry is such a hinderance to a persons life, why does he have 3000 posts here?
Those of us who are lucky enough to fly are the envy of many. How many kids say I wanna be a CPA when I grow up? Enough said.
When I am the only male chaperone amongst "stay at home moms" during my kids field field trip, I feel lucky to have my job. I know I will have given kid great memories and opportunities that none of the kids in his class have ever done. My kid is 7 and has been to Europe 5 times, and all over the United States. How many kids can say that? I work with great people who look out for each other. I don't have worry about a co-worker stabbing me in the back to get the promotion over me. I do my job right, I do it safe and go home with a feeling of accomplishment. I have brothers who make 8times more than me and everytime they see me, they tell me how they envy my job. I could complain about time away from my family, instead I make the best of the time I do have. Plus it's a great amount of time.
To the guy who started this post, live the dream!!! Don't let guys like skyhigh drag you down. They're the ones who sit on the sidelines, ***** and moan and try to drag everyone down. "I'm miserable, everyone else should be to." You'll fly with guys like this to but look at the big picture. They hate being away from home, is it because their spouse doesn't support their dream and makes them feel miserable everytime they head out the door? I'll bet you that is the real reason. Understand these people, learn from them, don't make their mistakes. EVERY job has it's negative issues, if you can't make the best out of it you will never be happy at any job. Look at skyhigh he isn't truly happy at his "other" job, he still misses the cockpit. Check out the number of posts he has here. If this industry is such a hinderance to a persons life, why does he have 3000 posts here?
Those of us who are lucky enough to fly are the envy of many. How many kids say I wanna be a CPA when I grow up? Enough said.
03-10-2008, 08:47 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I am in the middle. I miss flying, but remember all to well red-eyes, troublesome captains and crew scheduling. It took nearly five years to not flinch whenever my cell phone rings.
I wish I could go back but now it is way too difficult and demands too much of ones life.
SkyHigh
I wish I could go back but now it is way too difficult and demands too much of ones life.
SkyHigh
It's been about 2 1/2 years since I got out of it and every time I see a plane fly over (even a bug smasher) I think to myself how much I miss flying. Then I think long and hard about how I felt when I couldn't commute home for a weekend because of cancelations/wx, crappy overnight hotels as opposed to my own bed, missing my family, missed holidays, dealing with the Captain "Chuck Yeager"s of the world, and screw scheduling.
But still even, I miss it. Plus like you said, it is way too difficult and demanding to have to start all over. When I say start over, I mean you have to seriously start over. I’ve already done that bit. I have the time and experience, but without currency requirements they look at me like I'm some 200hr mcwonder - even at the regional level. But I think the biggest thing is putting my family through it all over again from the beginning. At this age you have to have priorities.
I think to have a truly fulfilling aviation career requires youth from the start and not many attachments along the way, but you might find yourself lonely at the end. Just my take on it all. But even thought I miss it, I won't have to die saying to myself what if.
03-10-2008, 08:50 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 152
Question to all of you...
Which is more fun:
Flying for an airline, going to different cities daily
or
Flying during your training, taking cross country trips in a small airplane
I'm kind of worried that when i start at the airlines, the fun of flying is going to be taken away, since very little "flying" is going to be done. I've heard that everything is so automated and regulated, that you barely even do anything anymore besides monitor the systems.
Which is more fun:
Flying for an airline, going to different cities daily
or
Flying during your training, taking cross country trips in a small airplane
I'm kind of worried that when i start at the airlines, the fun of flying is going to be taken away, since very little "flying" is going to be done. I've heard that everything is so automated and regulated, that you barely even do anything anymore besides monitor the systems.
03-10-2008, 09:10 AM
#48
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
This is a young mans game here, I wouldn't recommend anyone older than 25 starting at a regional. This businesses' pay rates will just not progress fast enough for anyone past the age of 25 to enjoy the life they want to lead. I was lucky enough to get the timing right and become a jet captain at 23 years old. I make more money than most of my peers right now, and flying is rather satisfying. Although, if you are the type of person that has to be around family all the time, this career will eat you alive no matter how much it pays.
03-10-2008, 09:43 AM
#49
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
jelloy,
It's two different types of enjoyment. I have really enjoyed flying for the airlines, however, i also really enjoyed the freedom and flexibility (after my training) when instructing in either picking the destinatinos for the students, or allowing them to choose something, and saying "sure, lets go". Was always enjoyable, taking light twins to get good southern cookin down at lamberts cafe, dodging thunderstorms at night without a radar, but knowing that when ATC said they were painting an area of intense precipitation 12 o'clock that you weren't "possibly above it" holds a special place to me.
Like Mesabah, i too was hired at a good time in the regionals, at the front wave of the hiring boom. As a result, im sitting in the left seat at 24 years old, making a "livable" wage, and truly enjoy flying...just trying to enjoy my 10 days off a month.
but eh, what you'll learn is, that it is what you make it. And as a capt. i flew with once said. "Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff."
It's two different types of enjoyment. I have really enjoyed flying for the airlines, however, i also really enjoyed the freedom and flexibility (after my training) when instructing in either picking the destinatinos for the students, or allowing them to choose something, and saying "sure, lets go". Was always enjoyable, taking light twins to get good southern cookin down at lamberts cafe, dodging thunderstorms at night without a radar, but knowing that when ATC said they were painting an area of intense precipitation 12 o'clock that you weren't "possibly above it" holds a special place to me.
Like Mesabah, i too was hired at a good time in the regionals, at the front wave of the hiring boom. As a result, im sitting in the left seat at 24 years old, making a "livable" wage, and truly enjoy flying...just trying to enjoy my 10 days off a month.
but eh, what you'll learn is, that it is what you make it. And as a capt. i flew with once said. "Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff."
03-10-2008, 12:27 PM
#50
11 soon to be 10 days off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Left seat, wait right seat, no no left seat, nope right seat! Ummmm, I guess I am confused
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by Mesabah
This is a young mans game here, I wouldn't recommend anyone older than 25 starting at a regional. This businesses' pay rates will just not progress fast enough for anyone past the age of 25 to enjoy the life they want to lead. I was lucky enough to get the timing right and become a jet captain at 23 years old. I make more money than most of my peers right now, and flying is rather satisfying. Although, if you are the type of person that has to be around family all the time, this career will eat you alive no matter how much it pays.
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