CRW Overrun Transcript
04-10-2010, 02:08 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Let's get the facts straight here: the 767 on the taxiway had quite the string of problems and a pretty bad case of fatigue before putting it on the taxiway. There had been numerous other attempts to land on the taxiway under those lighting conditions and sidestep conditions, so obviously there were more factors at play. It absolutely doesn't excuse them, but there needs to be an understanding of what happened. There was a major reason they were allowed to keep their jobs. Tower noticed them about to touchdown on the taxiway and let them land there after scanning and checking for anyone on the taxiway. That alone is a bit scary.... anyhoo....
Now then, this PSA crew displayed a significant lack of procedural maturity. There is some understandable shock involved in the post wreck stuff, but leading up to that point, come on! Just on the takeoff roll: 1. moving the flaps on the takeoff roll after realizing there is an error. 2. not understanding that when you take the flaps inbetween settings the config alarm is going to go off. 3. going against the hundreds of lives already lost in high speed aborts and aborting WELL above V1.
Now then, this PSA crew displayed a significant lack of procedural maturity. There is some understandable shock involved in the post wreck stuff, but leading up to that point, come on! Just on the takeoff roll: 1. moving the flaps on the takeoff roll after realizing there is an error. 2. not understanding that when you take the flaps inbetween settings the config alarm is going to go off. 3. going against the hundreds of lives already lost in high speed aborts and aborting WELL above V1.
I've only flow into ATL a handful of times since its an "outstation" at my company and we haven't even had service there for the past few years so I will be the first to admit that I really don't know what I'm talking about the ATL airport, but COME ON if it is a known fact that during certain lighting conditions on normal days planes have tried to land on this taxiway during a sidestep then why would someone with an EMERGENCY even consider doing a sidestep with those conditions...even this dumb RJ guy can see thats a bad idea. Fact of the matter is no matter what you are flying the FIRST thing you need to do is FLY THE PLANE. If you have an emergency then every attempt must be made to try to make the flight as "routine" as possible so once again how is accepting a sidestep that is known for tricking guys into lining up with a taxiway a good idea?? Those guys just got lucky that no one else was on that taxi way and that their mistake didn't end up resulting with a giant fireball with a major body count.
Now to the PSA guys. They were dumb. Were they dumb for setting the wrong flaps...not really since that can happen and if dealt with correctly is usually very benign. Now changing the config on the roll and aborting above V1 very stupid and usually deadly. This crew also got very lucky that this mistake didn't end up with a fireball and a "regional" body count.
It was brought up that many factors went into the ATL thing, but do we know what was up with the PSA crew in CRW? What day of the trip was it, what leg where they on, how long were their overnights the past few nights, were they having issues at home, etc? Just because this happend on a takeoff roll doesn't mean that the crew didn't have some of the same issues that the ATL crew had at the end of their flight.
Some people will bring up that fact that more RJ's have been crashing lately compaired to mainline planes. Lets look at some facts here. Domestically RJ's make up approx 50% of the flights if not more. RJ's typically do more legs per day and therefore spend more time in the "dangerous" regimes of flight (t/o and landing) Statistics alone are already stacked up against RJ's. So realisitcally the fact that more RJ's have crashed recently doesn't really mean too much.
Lets look at these two incidents. They both were lead down the path to where mistakes were made. Both mistakes were serious enough that in the past they have caused deaths. Both crews got LUCKY that they didn't kill people. Both crews had only 1 thing that saved them...ATL had an empty taxiway, if anyone would have been on that taxiway people would have died. CRW had the EMAS if there was no EMAS they would have gone off a cliff and people would have died.
We all need to remember that no matter what we fly our job is to get the plane where it needs to go without killing people. This whole regional vs mainline pilot thing needs to stop...it seems like its coming down from the mainline guys which doesn't make sense to me because you guys had to start somewhere and you guys were the whole reason that this whole RJ mess started in the first place, but there is a whole other thread needed for that.
04-10-2010, 03:05 PM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
After departure and enroute to ATL.
04-10-2010, 03:26 PM
#84
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Why do people on here insist on comparing the 767 landing on the taxiway to this runway overrun after an abort?
Stupid mistakes were made on both... and the whole "look they screwed up something too!" aspect... but seriously, comparing them is retarded. I tried to explain the difference in my post but it's apparently comparable to banging my head against the wall on this side of the forum.
I don't know who started it, but let's keep it on subject and talk about this ABORT.
And dojet, youve asked that several times already on other threads and been given the same answer. I have given you that answer too on multiple occasions. Reading is fundamental... Chill and try not to be so miserable.
Stupid mistakes were made on both... and the whole "look they screwed up something too!" aspect... but seriously, comparing them is retarded. I tried to explain the difference in my post but it's apparently comparable to banging my head against the wall on this side of the forum.
I don't know who started it, but let's keep it on subject and talk about this ABORT.
And dojet, youve asked that several times already on other threads and been given the same answer. I have given you that answer too on multiple occasions. Reading is fundamental... Chill and try not to be so miserable.
04-10-2010, 03:33 PM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
And dojet, youve asked that several times already on other threads and been given the same answer. I have given you that answer too on multiple occasions. Reading is fundamental... Chill and try not to be so miserable.
04-10-2010, 03:36 PM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Furloughed
Posts: 281
Hey everybody, guess what...
There are pilots that suck so incredibly bad at every single airline that it is flat out astonishing that they don't kill people. Sometimes their suck overpowers 99% of their luck and they manage to get as far as you possibly can without actually causing a smoking crater. That 1% of luck left is EMAS or an empty taxiway.
Who you work for doesn't change it. The average pilot at one airline to another may be of different level, but every single airline has their worst pilot. And that "worst pilot" sucks. Bad.
These PSA pilots sucked. Those Delta guys sucked too. Both to pretty high levels. And somewhere earlier someone posted a list of a bunch of flights that had sucky pilots. No airline is immune...
The only thing you should really be worried about is "How can I suck as little as possible when I go to work, and maybe help my fellow aviators do the same?"
There are pilots that suck so incredibly bad at every single airline that it is flat out astonishing that they don't kill people. Sometimes their suck overpowers 99% of their luck and they manage to get as far as you possibly can without actually causing a smoking crater. That 1% of luck left is EMAS or an empty taxiway.
Who you work for doesn't change it. The average pilot at one airline to another may be of different level, but every single airline has their worst pilot. And that "worst pilot" sucks. Bad.
These PSA pilots sucked. Those Delta guys sucked too. Both to pretty high levels. And somewhere earlier someone posted a list of a bunch of flights that had sucky pilots. No airline is immune...
The only thing you should really be worried about is "How can I suck as little as possible when I go to work, and maybe help my fellow aviators do the same?"
04-10-2010, 03:57 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: RJ Captain
Posts: 1,174
Originally Posted by Nada Surf
For those of you who think "oh it could happen to any one of us", your looking at this the wrong way and to be honest it is quite disturbing.
Look at the recent history of your Regional or Commuter accidents.
1. Buffalo, complete pilot error
2. Lexington, Pilot eror
3. Those two guys who took a CRJ too high and flamed both motors and every other word was "dude".
4. The ALPA poster boy who never came near an F-16 but claimed to fly them.
Im sure there's more but those come to mind. The level of Maturity between a Mainline cockpit and a Regional is astounding and Sulley is the perfect example. Calm, cool, get the Pax off.
As for me, when I see something like this over run, my first and last thought is "That will NEVER happen to me".
Just another reason to avoid RJ's until you guys decide to police yourselves. Your reputation is suffering.
Surf Hard,
Nada
Look at the recent history of your Regional or Commuter accidents.
1. Buffalo, complete pilot error
2. Lexington, Pilot eror
3. Those two guys who took a CRJ too high and flamed both motors and every other word was "dude".
4. The ALPA poster boy who never came near an F-16 but claimed to fly them.
Im sure there's more but those come to mind. The level of Maturity between a Mainline cockpit and a Regional is astounding and Sulley is the perfect example. Calm, cool, get the Pax off.
As for me, when I see something like this over run, my first and last thought is "That will NEVER happen to me".
Just another reason to avoid RJ's until you guys decide to police yourselves. Your reputation is suffering.
Surf Hard,
Nada
Accident: World Airways DC10 at Baltimore on May 6th 2009, blew nose gear tyre
Calm winds, good visibilty, and a landing hard enough to break bones and total the aircraft.
A few more major blunders:
NWA landing at the wrong airport (Rapid City & Ellwsorth AFB)
Continental 757 landing on the taxiway in Newark
American landing on the taxiway in SEA
Pilots at all levels can make mistakes
04-10-2010, 04:08 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,517
Originally Posted by Great Cornholio
We all need to remember that no matter what we fly our job is to get the plane where it needs to go without killing people.
04-10-2010, 04:32 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,097
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
You need to grow up, and STOP trying to legitimize an error made by major airline flight crew who failed to exercise SOP's, failed to verify/crosscheck, failed to back each other up, failed at CRM, failed to notice there was NOTHING what so ever resembling a runway before they landed.
If you don't understand that a major airline crew can completely screw up and kill people the same as a regional crew can, clearly you aren't capable of having an honest and intellectual conversation about aviation accidents.
But yeah, keep trying to rationalize why people in ATL aren't dead. They were lucky, NOT good.
Who here in an emergency situation is going to accept runway changes from a controller in a situation that has so much potential for error?
Jungle says it best;
If you don't understand that a major airline crew can completely screw up and kill people the same as a regional crew can, clearly you aren't capable of having an honest and intellectual conversation about aviation accidents.
But yeah, keep trying to rationalize why people in ATL aren't dead. They were lucky, NOT good.
Who here in an emergency situation is going to accept runway changes from a controller in a situation that has so much potential for error?
Jungle says it best;
There is a clear difference in lack of professionalism between the two incidents. If you can't see that, well, nevermind, we already been down this road with you. Recall the SwissAir crap?
The crew in ATL wasn't engrossed in conversation that distracted them. There were human factors for sure that could lead anyone down that path. But in the CRW incident, they choose to not do their duties properly and it bit them in the ass.
Get off your freaking high horse buddy.
04-10-2010, 04:41 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,097
Originally Posted by Utah
Nada works at World. Nothing bad ever happens there.
Accident: World Airways DC10 at Baltimore on May 6th 2009, blew nose gear tyre
Calm winds, good visibilty, and a landing hard enough to break bones and total the aircraft.
A few more major blunders:
NWA landing at the wrong airport (Rapid City & Ellwsorth AFB)
Continental 757 landing on the taxiway in Newark
American landing on the taxiway in SEA
Pilots at all levels can make mistakes
Accident: World Airways DC10 at Baltimore on May 6th 2009, blew nose gear tyre
Calm winds, good visibilty, and a landing hard enough to break bones and total the aircraft.
A few more major blunders:
NWA landing at the wrong airport (Rapid City & Ellwsorth AFB)
Continental 757 landing on the taxiway in Newark
American landing on the taxiway in SEA
Pilots at all levels can make mistakes
Yes, any pilot on any given day can make a stupid mistake that ends up turning into a nightmare situation. However, trying to legitamize an accident by saying "well majors have screwed up as well" is extremely childish and unprofessional -- as if that makes it ok. And to those who think these guys shouldn't get fired, I'd love to know what you think these guys would have to do in order to get fired? Kill somebody?
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