XJ 9E 9L SLI Thread
03-16-2011, 08:42 AM
#321
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
Originally Posted by PlanetEarth
Disclaimer: No dog in this fight.
Pilot 1 and Pilot 2 are new-hires together at Airline A (Pilot 1 is older/senior). After two years on reserve, both are furloughed. Pilot 1 finds work outside aviation while Pilot 2 immediately accepts a job at Airline B. One year later Pilot 2 is a line-holding FO when Airline B's holding company purchases Airline A.
Who has "worked hard for" more years? Who is "getting a break"? Which pilot should be higher on the combined list?
Don't necessarily have the answer. Just trying to illustrate that it's not as black and white as some DOH proponents would have you believe.
Pilot 1 and Pilot 2 are new-hires together at Airline A (Pilot 1 is older/senior). After two years on reserve, both are furloughed. Pilot 1 finds work outside aviation while Pilot 2 immediately accepts a job at Airline B. One year later Pilot 2 is a line-holding FO when Airline B's holding company purchases Airline A.
Who has "worked hard for" more years? Who is "getting a break"? Which pilot should be higher on the combined list?
Don't necessarily have the answer. Just trying to illustrate that it's not as black and white as some DOH proponents would have you believe.
They should get DOH benefits of airline A and they should be in the same seniority order as they were in the first company in respect to each other.
Luckily we had an agreement that solved this issue when airline B took those guys on.
Thats not the issue here though.
This is about getting the proper credit for the years you have served at your respective company.
I don't like the idea of someone that has put less time in than I have bidding higher than me on the seniority list.
Why are people having such trouble with the concept of seniority? You get hired, you get a number, simple.
Mergers should be the same.
And everyone can save your breath on "career" expectations, we all have "career" expectations.
03-16-2011, 09:36 AM
#322
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,904
Bartok, well said, I agree with you 100%!
As for me, DOH versus relative would be very close/negligible difference between a Pinnacle and Mesaba merger ONLY. But with Colgan added to it, DOH would put an extra 200 or so pilots below me, whereas a straight-up relative integration would put 200 Colgan pilots who are physically junior than me (hired past 2007) to go ABOVE me.
Plain and simple, it's BS. We are REGIONALS whether you like it or not, and the only fairest thing is DOH. It PROPERLY credits us for time spent at our own airline. NOTHING else would be fair. Why do you Colgan guys feel entitled to something other than DOH? Why should your years of service not count straight up? I have YET to get a straight-up shooter answer from any Colgan guy. Where are you adjwings?
As for me, DOH versus relative would be very close/negligible difference between a Pinnacle and Mesaba merger ONLY. But with Colgan added to it, DOH would put an extra 200 or so pilots below me, whereas a straight-up relative integration would put 200 Colgan pilots who are physically junior than me (hired past 2007) to go ABOVE me.
Plain and simple, it's BS. We are REGIONALS whether you like it or not, and the only fairest thing is DOH. It PROPERLY credits us for time spent at our own airline. NOTHING else would be fair. Why do you Colgan guys feel entitled to something other than DOH? Why should your years of service not count straight up? I have YET to get a straight-up shooter answer from any Colgan guy. Where are you adjwings?
03-16-2011, 09:39 AM
#323
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by Bartok
It is black and white.
They should get DOH benefits of airline A and they should be in the same seniority order as they were in the first company in respect to each other.
Predictable.
Luckily we had an agreement that solved this issue when airline B took those guys on.
Thats not the issue here though.
Agreed. Not addressing this issue.
This is about getting the proper credit for the years you have served at your respective company.
One pilot has two "years served" at his respective company. The other has three "years served" and two respective companies.
I don't like the idea of someone that has put less time in than I have bidding higher than me on the seniority list.
Someone else might not like the idea of a furloughed pilot with no recall prospects at the time of purchase bidding higher than his line-holder seniority. And unless you're prepared to build a combined list based on Part 121 date of hire, we can save our breath on "taking advantage of furloughed pilots".
Why are people having such trouble with the concept of seniority? You get hired, you get a number, simple.
Mergers should be the same.
See above.
And everyone can save your breath on "career" expectations, we all have "career" expectations.
Fairly certain that's not the wording listed in ALPA merger policy.
They should get DOH benefits of airline A and they should be in the same seniority order as they were in the first company in respect to each other.
Predictable.
Luckily we had an agreement that solved this issue when airline B took those guys on.
Thats not the issue here though.
Agreed. Not addressing this issue.
This is about getting the proper credit for the years you have served at your respective company.
One pilot has two "years served" at his respective company. The other has three "years served" and two respective companies.
I don't like the idea of someone that has put less time in than I have bidding higher than me on the seniority list.
Someone else might not like the idea of a furloughed pilot with no recall prospects at the time of purchase bidding higher than his line-holder seniority. And unless you're prepared to build a combined list based on Part 121 date of hire, we can save our breath on "taking advantage of furloughed pilots".
Why are people having such trouble with the concept of seniority? You get hired, you get a number, simple.
Mergers should be the same.
See above.
And everyone can save your breath on "career" expectations, we all have "career" expectations.
Fairly certain that's not the wording listed in ALPA merger policy.
03-16-2011, 11:43 AM
#324
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
Originally Posted by PlanetEarth
For what it's worth, I'm not against a national seniority list. I suspect we agree on more than you might think.
The main point on the furloughs, they were offered the deal of keeping their XJ seniority whether they took 9E or Colgan positions or not at all.
That was the deal.
If they were told they needed to come to 9E or lose seniority to ones that did go, then it would be an entirely different conversation.
But they were not offered that.
I don't see the problem.
03-16-2011, 12:47 PM
#325
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: SF340 CA
Posts: 59
ShyGuy I really was hoping to bury the hatchet with you. You just can't accept the fact that our seniority progressed faster than yours. Job security for pilots is based on WHERE YOU ARE ON THE LIST. Not how many years you have invested at your company. Many guys at airlines a lot better than yours have been furloughed after 15 years or more of service. Way more than your piddly 3 1/2 years or whatever time you think you have invested scrubbing toilets at pinnacle before you got hired as a PILOT.
The fact is is that we have progressed up our seniority list and have attained a certain level of job security that we DON'T DESERVE to loose by being integrated into a joint seniority list.
If you didn't like the way your seniority was moving along you should have left. I don't care how many years you have invested. You always had the chance to leave. You chose to stay and it's killing you that you made the wrong move and you expect other people to pay for your career decisions that didn't work out the way you planned.
And save your breath. We know that our seniority progression was because of the Q400 that were purchased off the backs of the hardworking Pinnacle pilots (and of course you hard work scrubbing toilets before you were a pilot at Pinnacle). And I won't ever forget it.
In this case it just worked out in our favor. Talk to anyone who's been in this business for a long time and successful at it. They will all tell you that something just worked out in their favor. Just a matter of luck and not necessarily what was "right or fair".
Somedays your the windshield some days your the bug!
I'll save you more typing too. I work for a "sorry excuse for an airline". As opposed to your diamond elite regional carrier that's one step ahead of us on the ladder of sucky airlines!
The fact is is that we have progressed up our seniority list and have attained a certain level of job security that we DON'T DESERVE to loose by being integrated into a joint seniority list.
If you didn't like the way your seniority was moving along you should have left. I don't care how many years you have invested. You always had the chance to leave. You chose to stay and it's killing you that you made the wrong move and you expect other people to pay for your career decisions that didn't work out the way you planned.
And save your breath. We know that our seniority progression was because of the Q400 that were purchased off the backs of the hardworking Pinnacle pilots (and of course you hard work scrubbing toilets before you were a pilot at Pinnacle). And I won't ever forget it.
In this case it just worked out in our favor. Talk to anyone who's been in this business for a long time and successful at it. They will all tell you that something just worked out in their favor. Just a matter of luck and not necessarily what was "right or fair".
Somedays your the windshield some days your the bug!
I'll save you more typing too. I work for a "sorry excuse for an airline". As opposed to your diamond elite regional carrier that's one step ahead of us on the ladder of sucky airlines!
03-16-2011, 01:08 PM
#326
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
Originally Posted by AJDWINGS
ShyGuy I really was hoping to bury the hatchet with you. You just can't accept the fact that our seniority progressed faster than yours. Job security for pilots is based on WHERE YOU ARE ON THE LIST. Not how many years you have invested at your company. Many guys at airlines a lot better than yours have been furloughed after 15 years or more of service. Way more than your piddly 3 1/2 years or whatever time you think you have invested scrubbing toilets at pinnacle before you got hired as a PILOT.
The fact is is that we have progressed up our seniority list and have attained a certain level of job security that we DON'T DESERVE to loose by being integrated into a joint seniority list.
If you didn't like the way your seniority was moving along you should have left. I don't care how many years you have invested. You always had the chance to leave. You chose to stay and it's killing you that you made the wrong move and you expect other people to pay for your career decisions that didn't work out the way you planned.
And save your breath. We know that our seniority progression was because of the Q400 that were purchased off the backs of the hardworking Pinnacle pilots (and of course you hard work scrubbing toilets before you were a pilot at Pinnacle). And I won't ever forget it.
In this case it just worked out in our favor. Talk to anyone who's been in this business for a long time and successful at it. They will all tell you that something just worked out in their favor. Just a matter of luck and not necessarily what was "right or fair".
Somedays your the windshield some days your the bug!
I'll save you more typing too. I work for a "sorry excuse for an airline". As opposed to your diamond elite regional carrier that's one step ahead of us on the ladder of sucky airlines!
The fact is is that we have progressed up our seniority list and have attained a certain level of job security that we DON'T DESERVE to loose by being integrated into a joint seniority list.
If you didn't like the way your seniority was moving along you should have left. I don't care how many years you have invested. You always had the chance to leave. You chose to stay and it's killing you that you made the wrong move and you expect other people to pay for your career decisions that didn't work out the way you planned.
And save your breath. We know that our seniority progression was because of the Q400 that were purchased off the backs of the hardworking Pinnacle pilots (and of course you hard work scrubbing toilets before you were a pilot at Pinnacle). And I won't ever forget it.
In this case it just worked out in our favor. Talk to anyone who's been in this business for a long time and successful at it. They will all tell you that something just worked out in their favor. Just a matter of luck and not necessarily what was "right or fair".
Somedays your the windshield some days your the bug!
I'll save you more typing too. I work for a "sorry excuse for an airline". As opposed to your diamond elite regional carrier that's one step ahead of us on the ladder of sucky airlines!
03-16-2011, 02:05 PM
#328
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: RJ FO
Posts: 61
I just spent the last hour reading through this thread, Wow! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind everyone of us, whether XJ-9E-9L are all at least a little stressed out about the eventual outcome of the ISL. What I don't understand is why so many on this thread continue to voice person OPINIONS and argue amongst eachother about a topic which we have NO control over? The ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy used by our Merger Committees, Mediator/Arbitrator is the governing document, PERIOD. Our Merger Committees obviously have embarkded upon an extremely daunting task and I hope they can come up with a fair and equitable solution in the end for ALL of us. If it does go to Arbitration this April, I trust Mr. Bloch and his over 40 years of experience guided by the ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy can come up with a reasonable solution for us all as well. I for one, will not dwell on something I have no control over. I look forward to sharing the Flight Deck with any XJ-9E-9E pilot and enjoying a GREAT contract as ONE group of professionals.
03-16-2011, 02:12 PM
#329
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by Bartok
We've already been over this earlier in this thread.
The main point on the furloughs, they were offered the deal of keeping their XJ seniority whether they took 9E or Colgan positions or not at all.
That was the deal.
An important clarification: As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong, since, as you noted, I have not read the entire discussion), the deal offered was two-fold:
1) Maintain XJ longevity (pay, vacation, etc.)
2) Retain the right, post-integration, to bid the higher of either their new 9E/9L seniority number, or the number that integration negotiations yield for their old XJ number.
Saying they will retain their XJ seniority is not the same as saying they retain the rights to their XJ number, wherever it may end up. Of course, this last part is what remains to be determined through negotiation.
If they were told they needed to come to 9E or lose seniority to ones that did go, then it would be an entirely different conversation.
But they were not offered that.
Agreed. All seniority numbers added after the date of announcement (including the new numbers assigned to those furloughs who accepted "the deal"), should fall below any number that was on any of the lists prior to the transaction. We all make our employment decisions based on the information available at the time we are faced with the decision. As you said, separate conversation.
I don't see the problem.
The main point on the furloughs, they were offered the deal of keeping their XJ seniority whether they took 9E or Colgan positions or not at all.
That was the deal.
An important clarification: As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong, since, as you noted, I have not read the entire discussion), the deal offered was two-fold:
1) Maintain XJ longevity (pay, vacation, etc.)
2) Retain the right, post-integration, to bid the higher of either their new 9E/9L seniority number, or the number that integration negotiations yield for their old XJ number.
Saying they will retain their XJ seniority is not the same as saying they retain the rights to their XJ number, wherever it may end up. Of course, this last part is what remains to be determined through negotiation.
If they were told they needed to come to 9E or lose seniority to ones that did go, then it would be an entirely different conversation.
But they were not offered that.
Agreed. All seniority numbers added after the date of announcement (including the new numbers assigned to those furloughs who accepted "the deal"), should fall below any number that was on any of the lists prior to the transaction. We all make our employment decisions based on the information available at the time we are faced with the decision. As you said, separate conversation.
I don't see the problem.
03-16-2011, 02:30 PM
#330
You scratched my anchor
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,892
Originally Posted by Doogi
I just spent the last hour reading through this thread, Wow! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind everyone of us, whether XJ-9E-9L are all at least a little stressed out about the eventual outcome of the ISL. What I don't understand is why so many on this thread continue to voice person OPINIONS and argue amongst eachother about a topic which we have NO control over? The ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy used by our Merger Committees, Mediator/Arbitrator is the governing document, PERIOD. Our Merger Committees obviously have embarkded upon an extremely daunting task and I hope they can come up with a fair and equitable solution in the end for ALL of us. If it does go to Arbitration this April, I trust Mr. Bloch and his over 40 years of experience guided by the ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy can come up with a reasonable solution for us all as well. I for one, will not dwell on something I have no control over. I look forward to sharing the Flight Deck with any XJ-9E-9E pilot and enjoying a GREAT contract as ONE group of professionals.
This is logical big picture thinking and WILL NOT be tolerated.
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