Upgrade to Captain w/o ATP PIC requirements
01-10-2012, 12:20 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
Originally Posted by 8Lpearlchannel
You'd better get a new valid written done if you are going to attempt your ATP in a light twin under Part 61...
From the ATP Pratical Test Standards:
From the ATP Pratical Test Standards:
You may be correct, but just a side note I have been speaking with my FSDO about the topic of this thread and they keep agreeing with me regarding 61.159. As far as the ATP written goes, if you have a current 121 ATP passing grade it will remain current so long as you have been engaged in 121 operations. That said, the ATP written will be current when you go for your exam. To err on the side of caution, it was recommended to me to get in contact with the examiner you will be using for your check ride, apparently they have a lot of discretion in the matter, i.e., whether or not they will accept your SIC time or not. I am not telling you that you will or will not have to re-take your written, but simply to get in touch with your examiner because at the end of the day they are the one who will sign your 8710. If your examiner says you don't have to re-take it and he'll accept your SIC then you're good. Call your examiner.
01-10-2012, 07:11 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Airbus 320 Right Seat
Posts: 1,440
Originally Posted by 8Lpearlchannel
You'd better get a new valid written done if you are going to attempt your ATP in a light twin under Part 61...
From the ATP Pratical Test Standards:
From the ATP Pratical Test Standards:
01-12-2012, 06:36 PM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: Unemployed 121 Captain
Posts: 246
Those that got hired at Regionals may have been done a disservice if you read the following verbatim. It (Regional) can get you there, but, it can take a long time to meet ALL of these requirements. I do wish you all the best of luck, though. You will see alot of New Hire Captains, and FO's Upgrading out of Seniority. § 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—
(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;
(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and
(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—
(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,” as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 “Personnel Licensing” to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40906, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20288, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61–109, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 61–124, 74 FR 42561, Aug. 21, 2009]
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—
(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;
(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and
(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—
(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,” as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 “Personnel Licensing” to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40906, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20288, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61–109, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 61–124, 74 FR 42561, Aug. 21, 2009]
01-14-2012, 11:20 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
Originally Posted by 727574drvr
Those that got hired at Regionals may have been done a disservice if you read the following verbatim. It (Regional) can get you there, but, it can take a long time to meet ALL of these requirements. I do wish you all the best of luck, though. You will see alot of New Hire Captains, and FO's Upgrading out of Seniority. § 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—
(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;
(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and
(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—
(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,” as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 “Personnel Licensing” to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40906, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20288, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61–109, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 61–124, 74 FR 42561, Aug. 21, 2009]
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—
(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;
(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and
(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—
(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,” as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 “Personnel Licensing” to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40906, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20288, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61–109, 68 FR 54560, Sept. 17, 2003; Amdt. 61–124, 74 FR 42561, Aug. 21, 2009]
01-14-2012, 12:28 PM
#85
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
Look at what I bolded above, apparently you overlooked this. The captain I am flying with now upgraded with under 250 PIC. He had an ICAO restriction on his cert that restricted international flying until he achieved the 250. SIC time counts. No disservice done and no street captains for a long long loooooooooooooong time at any airline but GoJet.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
This time can only be credited toward the 1500 total. Not the 250 PIC.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
Just because an SIC is the pilot flying, that does not make him "performing the duties of the PIC". If anyone want to argue this point, please tell me how an SIC without a PIC type is "performing the duties of the PIC".
01-14-2012, 02:18 PM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 127
We can have this debate til the cows come home. Bottom line: that exemption in the regulation is open to interpretation. It depends on your POI's interpretation of it. I know of some poi's that are counting the sic towards pic. Ours is not. But the union just sent out a letter asking FAA legal for an interpretation so we can figure out how some count it and some don't.
01-14-2012, 03:43 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
Originally Posted by smig
Take a look at what you bolded...
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
This time can only be credited toward the 1500 total. Not the 250 PIC.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
Just because an SIC is the pilot flying, that does not make him "performing the duties of the PIC". If anyone want to argue this point, please tell me how an SIC without a PIC type is "performing the duties of the PIC".
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
This time can only be credited toward the 1500 total. Not the 250 PIC.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
Just because an SIC is the pilot flying, that does not make him "performing the duties of the PIC". If anyone want to argue this point, please tell me how an SIC without a PIC type is "performing the duties of the PIC".
01-14-2012, 04:00 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
MunkyButtr
Just to put things in perspective--I had about 2,500 hours of TPIC, real PIC, ex-mil; when I got hired at Eastern--as a FE-- and was middle of the class for experience and time. And there are now new Captains who do not meet ATP experience req'ts.
GF
Just to put things in perspective--I had about 2,500 hours of TPIC, real PIC, ex-mil; when I got hired at Eastern--as a FE-- and was middle of the class for experience and time. And there are now new Captains who do not meet ATP experience req'ts.
GF
01-14-2012, 04:30 PM
#89
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
There is no argument, I am flying with a captain on this trip, right now, in this world, in this universe who upgraded, received an atp, all without 250 PIC. I personally know 4 COMAIR FO's who did their check ride in a seminole, received an atp without 250 PIC. Its all up to the examiner. I know I'm right, my FSDO tells me I'm right so convo over.
Well my FSDO tells me that I am right. Tell me how an FO at a regional airline can "perform the duties of the PIC" without a PIC type rating.
01-15-2012, 10:32 AM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 442
I asked at my airline and got the real answer to this question. My airline has an exemption. We don't need the PIC requirement if we are upgrading here. The exemption is specific to the airline I work for. Other airlines have their own exemptions. Some don't. Some airlines needed this exemption back in 2007 because the FO's didn't have the PIC time and they needed captains ASAP. They will need it again in a few years because there are still a lot of FO's without the PIC time. You know how it is....if it is going to cost the airlines money, the FAA usually caves and helps the airlines out by relaxing the rules.
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