Stop the Whipsaw!
09-14-2013 | 05:40 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 822
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From: CRJ200 Capt.
The dirty little ALPA secret is that the mainline pilot groups have actually promoted competition so as to benefit from the lowering of cost for regional feed....You see the mainline pilot groups get to bargain for more if the cost of regional feed is lowered. The USAirways MEC is on record back during the J4Js debacle as having worked with management to whipsaw the wholly owned USAirways regionals so they could take a bargaining credit for the lower costs. This came out during the RJDC testimony.
The Delta MEC has stated that lower regional feed costs allows for more mainline pay.
ALPA doesn't want you to know this...Just keep sending those checks to Herndon...
The Delta MEC has stated that lower regional feed costs allows for more mainline pay.
ALPA doesn't want you to know this...Just keep sending those checks to Herndon...
09-14-2013 | 05:49 PM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
From: CRJ200 Capt.
I'm slow but I think I just figured out why I feel you are so antagonistic. Some people may call it cynicism but I actually think its your disgruntled apathy. You fought the good fight and got beat down really
good. Now you also try to be that "I told you so" elder statesman that knows how everything works and how other things don't work. But you choose to sit on the sideline and just criticize instead of trying to be part of the solution. Ya ya, brand scope. Somehow you seem to have convinced yourself that you cannot do anything about it. If you aren't going to help, why don't you just keep your amusement of us to yourself while better people actually try to make things better. Maybe some others would jump in and lend a hand in the battle. Or is it that we might threaten your way of life so you find a need to be who you are? Do you have a plan B?
good. Now you also try to be that "I told you so" elder statesman that knows how everything works and how other things don't work. But you choose to sit on the sideline and just criticize instead of trying to be part of the solution. Ya ya, brand scope. Somehow you seem to have convinced yourself that you cannot do anything about it. If you aren't going to help, why don't you just keep your amusement of us to yourself while better people actually try to make things better. Maybe some others would jump in and lend a hand in the battle. Or is it that we might threaten your way of life so you find a need to be who you are? Do you have a plan B?
The fact is, at least 75 percent, if not more, in this business do what is best for themselves even if it comes at the expense of others....The unions, especially ALPA and APA have contributed to this and now we have the current mess that everyone has their panties in a wad over.....It didn't happen overnight, and many on here were participants in this mess.
You keep drinking that ALPA koolaid Nevets....Someday you to will probably spit it out.....
09-14-2013 | 08:20 PM
#133
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
I'm slow but I think I just figured out why I feel you are so antagonistic. Some people may call it cynicism but I actually think its your disgruntled apathy. You fought the good fight and got beat down really
good. Now you also try to be that "I told you so" elder statesman that knows how everything works and how other things don't work. But you choose to sit on the sideline and just criticize instead of trying to be part of the solution. Ya ya, brand scope. Somehow you seem to have convinced yourself that you cannot do anything about it. If you aren't going to help, why don't you just keep your amusement of us to yourself while better people actually try to make things better. Maybe some others would jump in and lend a hand in the battle. Or is it that we might threaten your way of life so you find a need to be who you are? Do you have a plan B?
good. Now you also try to be that "I told you so" elder statesman that knows how everything works and how other things don't work. But you choose to sit on the sideline and just criticize instead of trying to be part of the solution. Ya ya, brand scope. Somehow you seem to have convinced yourself that you cannot do anything about it. If you aren't going to help, why don't you just keep your amusement of us to yourself while better people actually try to make things better. Maybe some others would jump in and lend a hand in the battle. Or is it that we might threaten your way of life so you find a need to be who you are? Do you have a plan B?
The fact is, at least 75 percent, if not more, in this business do what is best for themselves even if it comes at the expense of others....The unions, especially ALPA and APA have contributed to this and now we have the current mess that everyone has their panties in a wad over.....It didn't happen overnight, and many on here were participants in this mess.
You keep drinking that ALPA koolaid Nevets....Someday you to will probably spit it out.....
I only expect that our regional MECs get good pay and work rules for this flying that the major MECs don't want to do themselves. But I don't expect the major MECs to help us do that. Otherwise they would do that by simply deciding to insource back.
If that is drinking the kool aid, then I'm fine with that.
09-14-2013 | 08:23 PM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,450
Likes: 0
From: Airbus button pusher
The dirty little ALPA secret is that the mainline pilot groups have actually promoted competition so as to benefit from the lowering of cost for regional feed....You see the mainline pilot groups get to bargain for more if the cost of regional feed is lowered. The USAirways MEC is on record back during the J4Js debacle as having worked with management to whipsaw the wholly owned USAirways regionals so they could take a bargaining credit for the lower costs. This came out during the RJDC testimony.
The Delta MEC has stated that lower regional feed costs allows for more mainline pay.
ALPA doesn't want you to know this...Just keep sending those checks to Herndon...
The Delta MEC has stated that lower regional feed costs allows for more mainline pay.
ALPA doesn't want you to know this...Just keep sending those checks to Herndon...
09-15-2013 | 03:45 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
From: FO, B-777
Here is a good current snap shot of pay
This should have been a long time ago. Useful info
http://www.mesapilots.com/documents/...Comparison.pdf
http://www.mesapilots.com/documents/...Comparison.pdf
09-15-2013 | 05:30 AM
#136
Banned
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,071
Likes: 0
This should have been a long time ago. Useful info
http://www.mesapilots.com/documents/...Comparison.pdf
http://www.mesapilots.com/documents/...Comparison.pdf
09-15-2013 | 07:20 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
The title of this thread is Stop the Whipsaw!
So rather than various regional carriers underbidding each other in a race to the bottom, it makes more sense to me that the flying should move to mainline carriers; where it has historically been.
Delta is taking delivery of 88 717's to, in large part, take back some of the flying that was given to regional carriers. Those 717's represent roughly 1,000 mainline pilot jobs. As a point of historical fact in 1991 Delta operated 30 DC-9-30's and 59 737-200's; 89 aircraft!
Look at the relative pay scales between your regional carrier and Delta. Third year Delta pay on the lowest paying equipment is $107 an hour. And that will rise to $113.00 on 1/1/15.
That's more than many (if not most) regional carrier captains make at the top of their scale, but the real difference is the Delta rate continues to rise with years of service, and upgrade to other equipment / captain.
jethikoki, "...the same equal and fair treatment that pilots have at the majors" you spoke of would mean getting furloughed as flying is transferred to other carriers. A fair number of the pilots I fly with were furloughed in the post 9/11 world, and not one has told me he (or she) was welcomed with open arms at any regional.
If you want a job at a mainline carrier, I think that's great and I wish you well, sincerely.
FSP, RJ's in huge numbers were ordered back in the late 1990's. Oil was under $20 a barrel. (Hard to believe, isn't it?) Fred Reid, Delta's infamous then COO, called the RJ's "self-financing". Today oil is $108 a barrel and those "self-financing" RJ's are money-sucking losers. While you may think your pay rate is subsidizing mine, I would argue the existence of your job is being subsidized by mainline as your aircraft is under a long term fee for departure contract.
If the 50 seat RJ were making money, Delta wouldn't be parking them as fast as they can.
So rather than various regional carriers underbidding each other in a race to the bottom, it makes more sense to me that the flying should move to mainline carriers; where it has historically been.
Delta is taking delivery of 88 717's to, in large part, take back some of the flying that was given to regional carriers. Those 717's represent roughly 1,000 mainline pilot jobs. As a point of historical fact in 1991 Delta operated 30 DC-9-30's and 59 737-200's; 89 aircraft!
Look at the relative pay scales between your regional carrier and Delta. Third year Delta pay on the lowest paying equipment is $107 an hour. And that will rise to $113.00 on 1/1/15.
That's more than many (if not most) regional carrier captains make at the top of their scale, but the real difference is the Delta rate continues to rise with years of service, and upgrade to other equipment / captain.
jethikoki, "...the same equal and fair treatment that pilots have at the majors" you spoke of would mean getting furloughed as flying is transferred to other carriers. A fair number of the pilots I fly with were furloughed in the post 9/11 world, and not one has told me he (or she) was welcomed with open arms at any regional.
If you want a job at a mainline carrier, I think that's great and I wish you well, sincerely.
FSP, RJ's in huge numbers were ordered back in the late 1990's. Oil was under $20 a barrel. (Hard to believe, isn't it?) Fred Reid, Delta's infamous then COO, called the RJ's "self-financing". Today oil is $108 a barrel and those "self-financing" RJ's are money-sucking losers. While you may think your pay rate is subsidizing mine, I would argue the existence of your job is being subsidized by mainline as your aircraft is under a long term fee for departure contract.
If the 50 seat RJ were making money, Delta wouldn't be parking them as fast as they can.
09-15-2013 | 07:57 AM
#138
Underpaid...
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,101
Likes: 0
From: French-Canadian
The title of this thread is Stop the Whipsaw!
So rather than various regional carriers underbidding each other in a race to the bottom, it makes more sense to me that the flying should move to mainline carriers; where it has historically been.
Delta is taking delivery of 88 717's to, in large part, take back some of the flying that was given to regional carriers. Those 717's represent roughly 1,000 mainline pilot jobs. As a point of historical fact in 1991 Delta operated 30 DC-9-30's and 59 737-200's; 89 aircraft!
Look at the relative pay scales between your regional carrier and Delta. Third year Delta pay on the lowest paying equipment is $107 an hour. And that will rise to $113.00 on 1/1/15.
That's more than many (if not most) regional carrier captains make at the top of their scale, but the real difference is the Delta rate continues to rise with years of service, and upgrade to other equipment / captain.
jethikoki, "...the same equal and fair treatment that pilots have at the majors" you spoke of would mean getting furloughed as flying is transferred to other carriers. A fair number of the pilots I fly with were furloughed in the post 9/11 world, and not one has told me he (or she) was welcomed with open arms at any regional.
If you want a job at a mainline carrier, I think that's great and I wish you well, sincerely.
FSP, RJ's in huge numbers were ordered back in the late 1990's. Oil was under $20 a barrel. (Hard to believe, isn't it?) Fred Reid, Delta's infamous then COO, called the RJ's "self-financing". Today oil is $108 a barrel and those "self-financing" RJ's are money-sucking losers. While you may think your pay rate is subsidizing mine, I would argue the existence of your job is being subsidized by mainline as your aircraft is under a long term fee for departure contract.
If the 50 seat RJ were making money, Delta wouldn't be parking them as fast as they can.
So rather than various regional carriers underbidding each other in a race to the bottom, it makes more sense to me that the flying should move to mainline carriers; where it has historically been.
Delta is taking delivery of 88 717's to, in large part, take back some of the flying that was given to regional carriers. Those 717's represent roughly 1,000 mainline pilot jobs. As a point of historical fact in 1991 Delta operated 30 DC-9-30's and 59 737-200's; 89 aircraft!
Look at the relative pay scales between your regional carrier and Delta. Third year Delta pay on the lowest paying equipment is $107 an hour. And that will rise to $113.00 on 1/1/15.
That's more than many (if not most) regional carrier captains make at the top of their scale, but the real difference is the Delta rate continues to rise with years of service, and upgrade to other equipment / captain.
jethikoki, "...the same equal and fair treatment that pilots have at the majors" you spoke of would mean getting furloughed as flying is transferred to other carriers. A fair number of the pilots I fly with were furloughed in the post 9/11 world, and not one has told me he (or she) was welcomed with open arms at any regional.
If you want a job at a mainline carrier, I think that's great and I wish you well, sincerely.
FSP, RJ's in huge numbers were ordered back in the late 1990's. Oil was under $20 a barrel. (Hard to believe, isn't it?) Fred Reid, Delta's infamous then COO, called the RJ's "self-financing". Today oil is $108 a barrel and those "self-financing" RJ's are money-sucking losers. While you may think your pay rate is subsidizing mine, I would argue the existence of your job is being subsidized by mainline as your aircraft is under a long term fee for departure contract.
If the 50 seat RJ were making money, Delta wouldn't be parking them as fast as they can.
Delta is replacing the Rjs because it's more economic to fly NB at the mainlines, but they will see all the leverage while they have it and the further the regionals take cuts the more pressure will be out on mainline pay rates and overall compensation rates. Pilot pay doesn't make the difference whether an RJ is more economical than a NB.
09-15-2013 | 09:53 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
The title of this thread is Stop the Whipsaw!
So rather than various regional carriers underbidding each other in a race to the bottom, it makes more sense to me that the flying should move to mainline carriers; where it has historically been.
Delta is taking delivery of 88 717's to, in large part, take back some of the flying that was given to regional carriers. Those 717's represent roughly 1,000 mainline pilot jobs. As a point of historical fact in 1991 Delta operated 30 DC-9-30's and 59 737-200's; 89 aircraft!
Look at the relative pay scales between your regional carrier and Delta. Third year Delta pay on the lowest paying equipment is $107 an hour. And that will rise to $113.00 on 1/1/15.
That's more than many (if not most) regional carrier captains make at the top of their scale, but the real difference is the Delta rate continues to rise with years of service, and upgrade to other equipment / captain.
jethikoki, "...the same equal and fair treatment that pilots have at the majors" you spoke of would mean getting furloughed as flying is transferred to other carriers. A fair number of the pilots I fly with were furloughed in the post 9/11 world, and not one has told me he (or she) was welcomed with open arms at any regional.
If you want a job at a mainline carrier, I think that's great and I wish you well, sincerely.
FSP, RJ's in huge numbers were ordered back in the late 1990's. Oil was under $20 a barrel. (Hard to believe, isn't it?) Fred Reid, Delta's infamous then COO, called the RJ's "self-financing". Today oil is $108 a barrel and those "self-financing" RJ's are money-sucking losers. While you may think your pay rate is subsidizing mine, I would argue the existence of your job is being subsidized by mainline as your aircraft is under a long term fee for departure contract.
If the 50 seat RJ were making money, Delta wouldn't be parking them as fast as they can.
So rather than various regional carriers underbidding each other in a race to the bottom, it makes more sense to me that the flying should move to mainline carriers; where it has historically been.
Delta is taking delivery of 88 717's to, in large part, take back some of the flying that was given to regional carriers. Those 717's represent roughly 1,000 mainline pilot jobs. As a point of historical fact in 1991 Delta operated 30 DC-9-30's and 59 737-200's; 89 aircraft!
Look at the relative pay scales between your regional carrier and Delta. Third year Delta pay on the lowest paying equipment is $107 an hour. And that will rise to $113.00 on 1/1/15.
That's more than many (if not most) regional carrier captains make at the top of their scale, but the real difference is the Delta rate continues to rise with years of service, and upgrade to other equipment / captain.
jethikoki, "...the same equal and fair treatment that pilots have at the majors" you spoke of would mean getting furloughed as flying is transferred to other carriers. A fair number of the pilots I fly with were furloughed in the post 9/11 world, and not one has told me he (or she) was welcomed with open arms at any regional.
If you want a job at a mainline carrier, I think that's great and I wish you well, sincerely.
FSP, RJ's in huge numbers were ordered back in the late 1990's. Oil was under $20 a barrel. (Hard to believe, isn't it?) Fred Reid, Delta's infamous then COO, called the RJ's "self-financing". Today oil is $108 a barrel and those "self-financing" RJ's are money-sucking losers. While you may think your pay rate is subsidizing mine, I would argue the existence of your job is being subsidized by mainline as your aircraft is under a long term fee for departure contract.
If the 50 seat RJ were making money, Delta wouldn't be parking them as fast as they can.
As far as regionals, they NEVER should have been started unless they were going to be independent. However anyone wants to interpret regionals beginnings and expansion, Pandora's box has been opened. Pilots need to be in more control of their contracts and airlines. It doesn't help to have it farmed or contracted out like it is now. You cannot expect small regionals going up against any major management who is ultimately calling the shots unless they have the help of the major pilots.
I know most majors pilots do not favor a flow or giving out a seniority even if it is to the bottom. A more immediate solution would be for everyone who is contracted to fly for a represented carrier like DAL be allowed into DALPA. Keep your testing and interview as it is for those moving to the major side. (NO EASY WAY IN) Also for all future flying in the case of DAL, be done ONLY by DALPA pilots. All future hiring should be done by DAL like it is now with pilots going to regional or major and those that don't make the jump to the major side will just retire or attrit out.
On the other hand, lets say Richard Branson and other investors go in with Sky West and did a hostile takeover of DAL. Now lets say all current pilots at DAL now must be tested and interviewed before being allowed continued employment. How would you feel?
09-16-2013 | 07:04 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Sir to you and other mainliners, not meaning to get in a ****in match with you but were you at DAL? I referred to NWA and AA. I remember flying with a furloughed NWA pilot that came to my company. As far as being welcomed I am sure there are plenty of examples good and bad on both sides. I don't understand the bad when we all should be working against the main problem which is management but we spend to much time blaming other pilots. I do think ALPA, APA and pilots at regionals and majors could do a better job for all furloughed pilots.
As far as regionals, they NEVER should have been started unless they were going to be independent. However anyone wants to interpret regionals beginnings and expansion, Pandora's box has been opened. Pilots need to be in more control of their contracts and airlines. It doesn't help to have it farmed or contracted out like it is now. You cannot expect small regionals going up against any major management who is ultimately calling the shots unless they have the help of the major pilots.
I know most majors pilots do not favor a flow or giving out a seniority even if it is to the bottom. A more immediate solution would be for everyone who is contracted to fly for a represented carrier like DAL be allowed into DALPA. Keep your testing and interview as it is for those moving to the major side. (NO EASY WAY IN) Also for all future flying in the case of DAL, be done ONLY by DALPA pilots. All future hiring should be done by DAL like it is now with pilots going to regional or major and those that don't make the jump to the major side will just retire or attrit out.
On the other hand, lets say Richard Branson and other investors go in with Sky West and did a hostile takeover of DAL. Now lets say all current pilots at DAL now must be tested and interviewed before being allowed continued employment. How would you feel?
As far as regionals, they NEVER should have been started unless they were going to be independent. However anyone wants to interpret regionals beginnings and expansion, Pandora's box has been opened. Pilots need to be in more control of their contracts and airlines. It doesn't help to have it farmed or contracted out like it is now. You cannot expect small regionals going up against any major management who is ultimately calling the shots unless they have the help of the major pilots.
I know most majors pilots do not favor a flow or giving out a seniority even if it is to the bottom. A more immediate solution would be for everyone who is contracted to fly for a represented carrier like DAL be allowed into DALPA. Keep your testing and interview as it is for those moving to the major side. (NO EASY WAY IN) Also for all future flying in the case of DAL, be done ONLY by DALPA pilots. All future hiring should be done by DAL like it is now with pilots going to regional or major and those that don't make the jump to the major side will just retire or attrit out.
On the other hand, lets say Richard Branson and other investors go in with Sky West and did a hostile takeover of DAL. Now lets say all current pilots at DAL now must be tested and interviewed before being allowed continued employment. How would you feel?
As far as the second question, I'm sure I wouldn't like having to interview for my same job. But I think you're mixing apples and oranges (I'll admit up-front my knowledge of regional carriers is limited). I believe a few regionals had prospective applicants interview with the associated mainline carrier (Compass and NWA comes to mind). If they passed the interview they started at Compass and had flow rights to NWA.
But I don't believe all that many pilots currently at various regional carriers interviewed with NWA or DAL. For example I'm quite certain no pilots at SkyWest had a similar interview route
So why should they get to short-circuit the hiring process at mainline? To continue with the SkyWest example, they have fee for departure contracts at several carriers; Alaska, Delta and United. So does that mean they should get to bypass the interview at any and all of the above?
Interestingly back in the late 1990's both Delta and United were hiring. One would think they'd be looking for similar pilot attributes. But talking with DAL new-hires at the time, many were turned down at United. And I understand from a very good friend at United, many of their pilots were turned down by Delta during the same time period.
I DO think the interview process is worthwhile. It's not a question of having the necessary flying skills... It's also making sure the interviewee is a good match for the corporate culture.
I ***** plenty, but I have great respect for the job Delta has done at recruiting and hiring pilots. In that light I don't want the process that has worked so well to be circumvented.
I'll also admit I am not in favor of any preferential hiring for ALPA members, and the part of our contract that stipulates 35% of newly hired pilots must come from ALPA represented regionals proves the conflict of interest that ALPA national denies so vehemently.
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