Stop the Whipsaw!
09-09-2013 | 08:31 AM
#111
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,967
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Do you have that in writing? If so, your MEC states they knew and did nothing? That's got to be an interesting memo.
I do not know what was provided to your MEC, or what they knew. My understanding is that Section 40 was not complied with.
The Delta MEC is on written record that they were not provided notice. They stop short of agreement that there was any violation of Section 40.
I do not know what was provided to your MEC, or what they knew. My understanding is that Section 40 was not complied with.
The Delta MEC is on written record that they were not provided notice. They stop short of agreement that there was any violation of Section 40.
09-09-2013 | 08:32 AM
#112
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
You know that is going to be ALPA National's position, it has to be. The attorneys in the Representation Department have an ethical responsibility to their client. If you ask an ALPA attorney if ALPA failed to follow the rules their answer will always be a denial or justification. (bloody glove? If it doesn't fit, you must acquit!)
The express MECs already had the actionable facts. Did the Pinnacle MEC provide notice? Was there a meeting? What was the response of the ASA / EJ MEC ? When the answers are no, no and none, it is obvious a violation took place.
It is easy to get frustrated with those friends who are trying to prevent whipsaw. Try not to let that happen and I'll do the same.
The express MECs already had the actionable facts. Did the Pinnacle MEC provide notice? Was there a meeting? What was the response of the ASA / EJ MEC ? When the answers are no, no and none, it is obvious a violation took place.
It is easy to get frustrated with those friends who are trying to prevent whipsaw. Try not to let that happen and I'll do the same.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 09-09-2013 at 08:54 AM.
09-09-2013 | 05:40 PM
#113
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
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From: EMB 145 CPT
It's funny to watch the Eagle and LXJT(former CALEXP) folks get so worked up now about "whipsaw".....Delta Connection, United Express, and USAir Express folks have been subject to the competition within a brand for over 20 years....Welcome to the party....
09-09-2013 | 05:59 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 822
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From: CRJ200 Capt.
Originally Posted by Nevets
My device won't let me see it. Why can't you just tell me?
Originally Posted by Nevets
Which makes me wonder about their apparent silence. By the way, LXJT has been dealing with it since 2007. So I wouldn't call 6 years "now". It was an old XJT MEC chairman who helped spearheaded the FFD task force way back then.
I attended my first FFD task force back in 2002....At the time, I asked Tom W. if he had read the previous scope task force reports from the mid 90s...He sad no....IACP and ALPA first started these "task forces" back in the 90s and all the reports on shelves collecting dust....Most of the current players haven't even read the previous reports....They are just collecting ALPA leave and eating well in Herndon generating new reports to stick on the shelf....
I've been involved in this issue for almost 20 years now and the only that changes is the players who come along to "fix" the problem....The problem stays the same....
09-09-2013 | 07:09 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 471
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All of this is mental masturbation.
Regional pilots in their specific groups are going to do what benefits them, their families, and their wallet before they will give any thought to unity. This is human nature. We saw it at Comair with multiple concessions. We saw it at Pinnacle. Now we've seen it at PSA. All this talk of unity is meaningless.
Even Kit Darby (gasp!) predicted this bloodbath we're seeing in the regionals, and its only going to get worse, as JM mentioned, because of the quickly shrinking regional pie. We indeed lost the battle sometime around 2006.
Instead of "unity" campaigns, regional pilots need to be updating their resumes, and contacts. The only thing that will stop the whipsaw is regional pilots voting with their feet, en masse. It probably won't matter anyhow, because even with these draconian concessions that line management and mainline pilots pockets, regionals are still going away. The business model of regional jets has failed. Delta is already flying mainline equipment to places like Chattanooga, TN, Augusta, GA, Montgomery AL that used to be 50 seat CRJs or even turboprops. With the 717s even more is coming. ALPA has been telling us for 10 years that they want to take it back. Now it looks like they've finally accomplished it, not through spending negotiating capitol on scope, but by making RJ flying uneconomical. Quite a brilliant strategy. I would surely hate to be a lifer are a regional right now. I bet JM is scared.
Regional pilots in their specific groups are going to do what benefits them, their families, and their wallet before they will give any thought to unity. This is human nature. We saw it at Comair with multiple concessions. We saw it at Pinnacle. Now we've seen it at PSA. All this talk of unity is meaningless.
Even Kit Darby (gasp!) predicted this bloodbath we're seeing in the regionals, and its only going to get worse, as JM mentioned, because of the quickly shrinking regional pie. We indeed lost the battle sometime around 2006.
Instead of "unity" campaigns, regional pilots need to be updating their resumes, and contacts. The only thing that will stop the whipsaw is regional pilots voting with their feet, en masse. It probably won't matter anyhow, because even with these draconian concessions that line management and mainline pilots pockets, regionals are still going away. The business model of regional jets has failed. Delta is already flying mainline equipment to places like Chattanooga, TN, Augusta, GA, Montgomery AL that used to be 50 seat CRJs or even turboprops. With the 717s even more is coming. ALPA has been telling us for 10 years that they want to take it back. Now it looks like they've finally accomplished it, not through spending negotiating capitol on scope, but by making RJ flying uneconomical. Quite a brilliant strategy. I would surely hate to be a lifer are a regional right now. I bet JM is scared.
I don't know of regionals pilots wanting or trying to take any jobs away from mainline but boy, it sure seems like mainline pilots would love to take back any and all jobs back they feel were lost to the regionals and offer nothing in return. So if there will ever be any true unity it will need to start at the major level and not by kicking regional pilots to the curb regardless of how entitled majors may feel nor allowing majors to discriminate against regionals.
09-10-2013 | 08:07 AM
#116
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
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From: EMB 145 CPT
Originally Posted by Nevets
My device won't let me see it. Why can't you just tell me?
Originally Posted by Nevets
Which makes me wonder about their apparent silence. By the way, LXJT has been dealing with it since 2007. So I wouldn't call 6 years "now". It was an old XJT MEC chairman who helped spearheaded the FFD task force way back then.
I attended my first FFD task force back in 2002....At the time, I asked Tom W. if he had read the previous scope task force reports from the mid 90s...He sad no....IACP and ALPA first started these "task forces" back in the 90s and all the reports on shelves collecting dust....Most of the current players haven't even read the previous reports....They are just collecting ALPA leave and eating well in Herndon generating new reports to stick on the shelf....
I've been involved in this issue for almost 20 years now and the only that changes is the players who come along to "fix" the problem....The problem stays the same....
good. Now you also try to be that "I told you so" elder statesman that knows how everything works and how other things don't work. But you choose to sit on the sideline and just criticize instead of trying to be part of the solution. Ya ya, brand scope. Somehow you seem to have convinced yourself that you cannot do anything about it. If you aren't going to help, why don't you just keep your amusement of us to yourself while better people actually try to make things better. Maybe some others would jump in and lend a hand in the battle. Or is it that we might threaten your way of life so you find a need to be who you are? Do you have a plan B?
09-12-2013 | 06:14 AM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,168
Likes: 0
From: Reclined
Don't let the stickers fool you, this is about changing the way regional pilots negotiate and encouraging them to stand up for themselves. Stickers bring awareness, then it is up to us all individually to make changes in this industry. There are many things we can discuss as we move forward but the pressing issue is stopping the whipsaw as it is being played today. The current airline we are focused on is PSA where their union is asking their pilots to vote in concessions for absolutely no reason. You don't ask a pilot group for paycuts for bigger aircraft. We have to stop falling for the same trick over and over again because we have a short term memory. The late 90s saw airlines using Jets as leverage when the jets were coming all along. Flying will be replaced whether we accept paycuts or hold out for fair pay.
Your union, ALPA has failed you over the years and your mainline "brothers" actually encourage this environment.
Who do you work for?
Exactly. Somebody gets it.
They'd have to come back with improvements, not concessions.
Is this generation lost? I've never heard of unions giving concessions to PROFITABLE companies.
Something is drastically wrong at ALPA.
09-12-2013 | 06:31 AM
#118
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
Don't let the stickers fool you, this is about changing the way regional pilots negotiate and encouraging them to stand up for themselves. Stickers bring awareness, then it is up to us all individually to make changes in this industry. There are many things we can discuss as we move forward but the pressing issue is stopping the whipsaw as it is being played today. The current airline we are focused on is PSA where their union is asking their pilots to vote in concessions for absolutely no reason. You don't ask a pilot group for paycuts for bigger aircraft. We have to stop falling for the same trick over and over again because we have a short term memory. The late 90s saw airlines using Jets as leverage when the jets were coming all along. Flying will be replaced whether we accept paycuts or hold out for fair pay.
Your union, ALPA has failed you over the years and your mainline "brothers" actually encourage this environment.
Who do you work for?
Exactly. Somebody gets it.
They'd have to come back with improvements, not concessions.
Is this generation lost? I've never heard of unions giving concessions to PROFITABLE companies.
Something is drastically wrong at ALPA.
09-12-2013 | 11:14 AM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: 717 Sidekick
The leadership behind this whole stop the whipsaw movement sure gets it and I hope it is influencing others to get it as well! Do we know about the results from the psa vote or when they will be available?
09-12-2013 | 11:26 AM
#120
Guest
Posts: n/a
Have fun!
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