Stop the Whipsaw!
09-06-2013 | 06:50 AM
#81
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From: Seat 0B
There are no pilots, good luck staffing a start up regional. Even if the current regionals furlough I doubt a large portion of those pilots would go to a new regional. I'm at the point now where I would welcome a furlough, I need a kick in the ass to get out of this horrible industry and I imagine I'm not alone in being unwilling to jump from one garbage airline to another just to chase that mythical mainline job.
09-06-2013 | 07:11 AM
#82
2 days off
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Embraer Systems Analyst
And how much would it cost to start such new airline? Also, GoJet was born out of necessity for AA SCOPE more than anything else. It's not cost effective to run a very small operation even if the pilots are paid less. Stop believing that pilots dictate where billions of dollars worth of aircraft are placed. Mainline pilots get raises that far supersede the regional cuts being asked, don't give me this crap that 50 seaters are not cost effective and that regionals are not made to make that much. Blah, blah, blah. We regionals pilots fly over 50% of the domestic departures often across 2 time zones and many times over 1000nm. We are not regional airlines. I have started a day one the East cost and finished on the west coast, that's not regional to me.
But whatever, keep bending over for management due to fear. Have pride, self respect and dignity. I am not sure what other professions are willing to accept concessions time after time.
But whatever, keep bending over for management due to fear. Have pride, self respect and dignity. I am not sure what other professions are willing to accept concessions time after time.
I completely agree.
1. We are not doing regional flying anymore. They're longer routes and were forced to do our best with limited resources and crappy equipment.
2. Management treats us the way they do because they can. Nobody has the guts to say no. If enough people say no industry wide, management will HAVE to change the way they compensate their labor.
09-06-2013 | 09:57 AM
#83
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From: EMB 145 CPT
And this is the point I was getting to when asking what happens if everyone refused to take concessions. I don't think that the new DAL, UAL, and AA contracts allows any more alter ego, ala compass. Can anyone confirm?
09-06-2013 | 10:09 AM
#85
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From: CRJ200 Capt.
09-06-2013 | 12:25 PM
#86
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From: EMB 145 CPT
09-06-2013 | 03:31 PM
#87
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Here's the thing..."Whipsaw" is nothing more than "competition". Until you solve the problem of "competing" within a brand, all the stickers in the world won't change reality.
The only way to change this is with "brand scope" negotiated at the mainline level...Which isn't likely to happen because that would require them to use negotiating capital for other pilots. In addition, the mainline pilots actually get negotiating "credit" at the table for helping to lower the cost of regional feed...Dirty little ALPA secret that they don't want you to know.
ASA and CMR pilots fought this battle with the PID and then RJDC over a decade ago.....and lost.
The only way to change this is with "brand scope" negotiated at the mainline level...Which isn't likely to happen because that would require them to use negotiating capital for other pilots. In addition, the mainline pilots actually get negotiating "credit" at the table for helping to lower the cost of regional feed...Dirty little ALPA secret that they don't want you to know.
ASA and CMR pilots fought this battle with the PID and then RJDC over a decade ago.....and lost.
09-07-2013 | 07:51 AM
#88
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Joined: Mar 2010
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All of this is mental masturbation.
Regional pilots in their specific groups are going to do what benefits them, their families, and their wallet before they will give any thought to unity. This is human nature. We saw it at Comair with multiple concessions. We saw it at Pinnacle. Now we've seen it at PSA. All this talk of unity is meaningless.
Even Kit Darby (gasp!) predicted this bloodbath we're seeing in the regionals, and its only going to get worse, as JM mentioned, because of the quickly shrinking regional pie. We indeed lost the battle sometime around 2006.
Instead of "unity" campaigns, regional pilots need to be updating their resumes, and contacts. The only thing that will stop the whipsaw is regional pilots voting with their feet, en masse. It probably won't matter anyhow, because even with these draconian concessions that line management and mainline pilots pockets, regionals are still going away. The business model of regional jets has failed. Delta is already flying mainline equipment to places like Chattanooga, TN, Augusta, GA, Montgomery AL that used to be 50 seat CRJs or even turboprops. With the 717s even more is coming. ALPA has been telling us for 10 years that they want to take it back. Now it looks like they've finally accomplished it, not through spending negotiating capitol on scope, but by making RJ flying uneconomical. Quite a brilliant strategy. I would surely hate to be a lifer are a regional right now. I bet JM is scared.
Regional pilots in their specific groups are going to do what benefits them, their families, and their wallet before they will give any thought to unity. This is human nature. We saw it at Comair with multiple concessions. We saw it at Pinnacle. Now we've seen it at PSA. All this talk of unity is meaningless.
Even Kit Darby (gasp!) predicted this bloodbath we're seeing in the regionals, and its only going to get worse, as JM mentioned, because of the quickly shrinking regional pie. We indeed lost the battle sometime around 2006.
Instead of "unity" campaigns, regional pilots need to be updating their resumes, and contacts. The only thing that will stop the whipsaw is regional pilots voting with their feet, en masse. It probably won't matter anyhow, because even with these draconian concessions that line management and mainline pilots pockets, regionals are still going away. The business model of regional jets has failed. Delta is already flying mainline equipment to places like Chattanooga, TN, Augusta, GA, Montgomery AL that used to be 50 seat CRJs or even turboprops. With the 717s even more is coming. ALPA has been telling us for 10 years that they want to take it back. Now it looks like they've finally accomplished it, not through spending negotiating capitol on scope, but by making RJ flying uneconomical. Quite a brilliant strategy. I would surely hate to be a lifer are a regional right now. I bet JM is scared.
09-07-2013 | 09:55 AM
#89
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Reclined
BS. They were formed to get around a CBA that required more $$ for larger aircraft. That simple. (Republic had the same "issue" with AA scope, and yet they managed to have one list for their certificates.)
Speaking of everyone's favorite bottom feeder, they'd be happy to take paycuts to fly any new jets.
How it worked with a seniority list or separate union - or even a single list - would not have changed the requirement for a new certificate.
Back on topic.
Eagle is in BK and still said no to USAir concession demands. Z
What's PSA's excuse?
Why is your MEC even entertaining concessions?
Do mechanics take concessions so the company will but them new tools?
What plane they give you to fly isn't your problem to solve. If they want maximum profits, provide the employees the correct equipment and tools.
09-07-2013 | 01:44 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,450
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From: Airbus button pusher
All of this is mental masturbation.
Regional pilots in their specific groups are going to do what benefits them, their families, and their wallet before they will give any thought to unity. This is human nature. We saw it at Comair with multiple concessions. We saw it at Pinnacle. Now we've seen it at PSA. All this talk of unity is meaningless.
Even Kit Darby (gasp!) predicted this bloodbath we're seeing in the regionals, and its only going to get worse, as JM mentioned, because of the quickly shrinking regional pie. We indeed lost the battle sometime around 2006.
Instead of "unity" campaigns, regional pilots need to be updating their resumes, and contacts. The only thing that will stop the whipsaw is regional pilots voting with their feet, en masse. It probably won't matter anyhow, because even with these draconian concessions that line management and mainline pilots pockets, regionals are still going away. The business model of regional jets has failed. Delta is already flying mainline equipment to places like Chattanooga, TN, Augusta, GA, Montgomery AL that used to be 50 seat CRJs or even turboprops. With the 717s even more is coming. ALPA has been telling us for 10 years that they want to take it back. Now it looks like they've finally accomplished it, not through spending negotiating capitol on scope, but by making RJ flying uneconomical. Quite a brilliant strategy. I would surely hate to be a lifer are a regional right now. I bet JM is scared.
Regional pilots in their specific groups are going to do what benefits them, their families, and their wallet before they will give any thought to unity. This is human nature. We saw it at Comair with multiple concessions. We saw it at Pinnacle. Now we've seen it at PSA. All this talk of unity is meaningless.
Even Kit Darby (gasp!) predicted this bloodbath we're seeing in the regionals, and its only going to get worse, as JM mentioned, because of the quickly shrinking regional pie. We indeed lost the battle sometime around 2006.
Instead of "unity" campaigns, regional pilots need to be updating their resumes, and contacts. The only thing that will stop the whipsaw is regional pilots voting with their feet, en masse. It probably won't matter anyhow, because even with these draconian concessions that line management and mainline pilots pockets, regionals are still going away. The business model of regional jets has failed. Delta is already flying mainline equipment to places like Chattanooga, TN, Augusta, GA, Montgomery AL that used to be 50 seat CRJs or even turboprops. With the 717s even more is coming. ALPA has been telling us for 10 years that they want to take it back. Now it looks like they've finally accomplished it, not through spending negotiating capitol on scope, but by making RJ flying uneconomical. Quite a brilliant strategy. I would surely hate to be a lifer are a regional right now. I bet JM is scared.
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