Outstanding ALPA Leadership for Regionals
12-27-2013, 06:55 AM
#51
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
Packrat, it's time you face some hard realities. Yes, MEC's and NC's negotiate...but the do so with the financial axe of ALPA over their heads. If you don't take the deal ALPA wants you to take as they watch the $$ flow to the process, you get the "take the deal and go sell it to your people or we will have to "rethink" how we fund your MEC and commitees" speech. Don't waste your time telling me it doesn't happen, I've heard it face to face since the term of Hank Duffy. Just like he did when he rolled over on pee testing. What you don't understand is that no MEC or NC has any real power in terms of a contract. If you LOOK at the charter, you'll find that ALPA has the bargaining rights for every carrier. The Presidents signature isn't a "photo op"...he's the only one who can accept or reject a deal. And if he so chose, he could direct the negotiations and present the deal to a pilot group. To save the firestorm and keep the masses silent, he doesn't...but he DOES send "experts" to "assist." Unless you are a legacy with deep pockets that feed the ALPA coffers. Then you can go outside and hire your own and keep people like Cohen, Weiss and Surrender FAR away. (Which is a damn shame, because in the old days old man Weiss would have told folks like Prater and Moak where to shove it...but that's a different story.
What experts would those be? An accountant to cost out improvements? A young attorney? Don't think we saw any of those at Compass. Perhaps they're all tied up with their cash cows, UAL and DAL.
12-27-2013, 06:59 AM
#52
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
And if he so chose, he could direct the negotiations and present the deal to a pilot group. To save the firestorm and keep the masses silent, he doesn't...but he DOES send "experts" to "assist." Unless you are a legacy with deep pockets that feed the ALPA coffers. Then you can go outside and hire your own and keep people like Cohen, Weiss and Surrender FAR away. (Which is a damn shame, because in the old days old man Weiss would have told folks like Prater and Moak where to shove it...but that's a different story)
Incorrect. The attorneys that "Majors" pilot groups use while negotiating during Sec 6 are provided by ALPA National. They do not go out and hire their own attorneys. That would defeat the purpose of paying dues.
12-27-2013, 07:41 AM
#53
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
Yeah, it was interesting. However the fact that he was totally wrong about how ALPA National "finances" the MECs. He obviously has NEVER been an MEC Secretary/Treasurer. If he had any experience in that job he would have been embarrassed to post what he did.
Considering how far off base he was on that subject, I give him the same level of credibility on the rest of his post.
Anyone who has been on the inside of an MEC during contract negotiations KNOWS all National can do is advise. If the individual MEC refuses to acknowledge and follow National's advice, things can go bad VERY quickly.
National only signs the final product AFTER it has been negotiated, agreed to and ratified. National's signature is really just a formality.
But, let's NEVER stop facts from interfering with people's belief in cockpit stories.
Considering how far off base he was on that subject, I give him the same level of credibility on the rest of his post.
National only signs the final product AFTER it has been negotiated, agreed to and ratified. National's signature is really just a formality.
But, let's NEVER stop facts from interfering with people's belief in cockpit stories.
12-27-2013, 07:52 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 131
Yeah, it was interesting. However the fact that he was totally wrong about how ALPA National "finances" the MECs. He obviously has NEVER been an MEC Secretary/Treasurer. If he had any experience in that job he would have been embarrassed to post what he did.
Considering how far off base he was on that subject, I give him the same level of credibility on the rest of his post.
Anyone who has been on the inside of an MEC during contract negotiations KNOWS all National can do is advise. If the individual MEC refuses to acknowledge and follow National's advice, things can go bad VERY quickly.
National only signs the final product AFTER it has been negotiated, agreed to and ratified. National's signature is really just a formality.
But, let's NEVER stop facts from interfering with people's belief in cockpit stories.
Considering how far off base he was on that subject, I give him the same level of credibility on the rest of his post.
Anyone who has been on the inside of an MEC during contract negotiations KNOWS all National can do is advise. If the individual MEC refuses to acknowledge and follow National's advice, things can go bad VERY quickly.
National only signs the final product AFTER it has been negotiated, agreed to and ratified. National's signature is really just a formality.
But, let's NEVER stop facts from interfering with people's belief in cockpit stories.
Packrat, I think you've been drinking too much Koolaid brother.. - come back to us!
..Once upon a time I was a sitting MEC member and I can categorically tell you that you are the one who is incorrect. What may be happening here is that you have been lied to by people you believe in. ALPA pilot groups are notoriously manipulated and micromanaged by their MEC's who are mere puppets of National. They seek committee and MEC members that will "play ball" and who are easily subservient toward the overall agenda of National. They are not above lying and blatant manipulation.
There were several occasions where our MEC was hamstrung by National on what we wanted to do budget wise..they simply would not approve anything they felt would deteriorate whatever goal they were currently working towards. We were threatened with budget reductions by National on more than one occasion.
Though MEC's have "on paper" control over their budgets there is still very real oversight by National. If you don't understand that then I urge you to start asking some questions.
All that being said I won't discount the possibility that things are different at your carrier. But you also need to concede that things aren't quite as "on paper" rosey schmosey on other properties..ALPA has real problems with how it represents Regional pilot groups...The blame is just as much on National as it is on Local MEC's for crap wages and crap CBAs. It's a complete failure of the union from the top down, not a single sided conundrum.
12-27-2013, 09:38 AM
#55
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
Mag,
You obviously weren't S/T. Because you apparently have no clue how the budget works. Either that or your MEC blew the SMRA on Flight Pay Loss every year.
Caveat: You may have a point about the purse strings. I seem to recall that National was forced to ship additional moneys above and beyond their MEC accounts and SMRA to some regional airlines since their dues levels were so pathetic.
Having said that, National does not negotiate, approve or ratify any individual airline's contracts. They pro forma sign them after the deal is delivered. National's role is advisory only. If you don't take their advice and screw the pooch, that's a YOUR MEC problem.
You obviously weren't S/T. Because you apparently have no clue how the budget works. Either that or your MEC blew the SMRA on Flight Pay Loss every year.
Caveat: You may have a point about the purse strings. I seem to recall that National was forced to ship additional moneys above and beyond their MEC accounts and SMRA to some regional airlines since their dues levels were so pathetic.
Having said that, National does not negotiate, approve or ratify any individual airline's contracts. They pro forma sign them after the deal is delivered. National's role is advisory only. If you don't take their advice and screw the pooch, that's a YOUR MEC problem.
12-27-2013, 10:19 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Left
Posts: 1,809
We were told this particular lawyer was THE lawyer at national.
Regardless of him being there or not a lot of what was told to us during the roadshows was heavily influenced on this lawyer's opinions on the quality of the TA.
I think it would be safe to assume that this lawyer has a close relationship with Moak.
12-27-2013, 01:49 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 352
Packrat, it's time you face some hard realities. Yes, MEC's and NC's negotiate...but the do so with the financial axe of ALPA over their heads. If you don't take the deal ALPA wants you to take as they watch the $$ flow to the process, you get the "take the deal and go sell it to your people or we will have to "rethink" how we fund your MEC and commitees" speech. Don't waste your time telling me it doesn't happen, I've heard it face to face since the term of Hank Duffy. Just like he did when he rolled over on pee testing. What you don't understand is that no MEC or NC has any real power in terms of a contract. If you LOOK at the charter, you'll find that ALPA has the bargaining rights for every carrier. The Presidents signature isn't a "photo op"...he's the only one who can accept or reject a deal. And if he so chose, he could direct the negotiations and present the deal to a pilot group. To save the firestorm and keep the masses silent, he doesn't...but he DOES send "experts" to "assist." Unless you are a legacy with deep pockets that feed the ALPA coffers. Then you can go outside and hire your own and keep people like Cohen, Weiss and Surrender FAR away. (Which is a damn shame, because in the old days old man Weiss would have told folks like Prater and Moak where to shove it...but that's a different story)
You took a "no strike" clause for pay stability? You sold your only leverage for any future gowth or increases for stability? Do you understand what you gave up? And what you did to the rest of the industry by agreeing to that precedent? Even better, you bought into the ALPA line about that. A line they came up with because they didn't want to bear the cost of a potential strike or member assessments. Heaven forbid we stand like men...let's just take the crumbs and hope for a better day.
ALPA has been viewed for the past 30 years as a paper tiger in DC. The last time anyone who was an ALPA carrier showed a set was at EAL when they stood up for the industry against Lorenzo. And they got sold down the river when the DAL pilots complained to Duffy about having to pay strike assessments to their ATL competition...so Duffy sent his ExAdmin Randy Babbitt; an EAL pilot and SON of one of an EAL pilot...to tell the EAL guys that it was, "time to cut the burning lifeboats loose." ALPA protecting ALPA. Trade unionism meant nothing from that day forward.
Every so called strike since then was for a carriers self interest...not the industry. IF ALPA had any serious direction, they would have been lockstep on every carrier that has gone on strike; regional and legacy. Never happened. Babbitt was once asked by a senior UAL Captain if he knew why he was elected. He said, "to represent you in DC." The Captain said, "No, we elected your A** to go to stand up to a judge and go to jail for us." You never saw a guy leave a meeting so fast.
Prater was a joke who openly said he had "Potomac fever" and was stupid enough to believe that it would lead to a cushy K Street (Lobbyist) job. Moak knew better. His K Street job was in the bag BEFORE he got elected. His job at DALPA and now at National was to help dismantle the regionals. He's doing a damn fine job and his minders are thrilled. He'll be fine and won't think twice of you as he waltzes out the door as Mass. Avenue to his new gig.
The GOOD staffers at ALPA...the unionized folks who really care and have done the work for all pilots over the years...have been brutalized. All the way up and down the chain, they see the end coming soon.
You took a "no strike" clause for pay stability? You sold your only leverage for any future gowth or increases for stability? Do you understand what you gave up? And what you did to the rest of the industry by agreeing to that precedent? Even better, you bought into the ALPA line about that. A line they came up with because they didn't want to bear the cost of a potential strike or member assessments. Heaven forbid we stand like men...let's just take the crumbs and hope for a better day.
ALPA has been viewed for the past 30 years as a paper tiger in DC. The last time anyone who was an ALPA carrier showed a set was at EAL when they stood up for the industry against Lorenzo. And they got sold down the river when the DAL pilots complained to Duffy about having to pay strike assessments to their ATL competition...so Duffy sent his ExAdmin Randy Babbitt; an EAL pilot and SON of one of an EAL pilot...to tell the EAL guys that it was, "time to cut the burning lifeboats loose." ALPA protecting ALPA. Trade unionism meant nothing from that day forward.
Every so called strike since then was for a carriers self interest...not the industry. IF ALPA had any serious direction, they would have been lockstep on every carrier that has gone on strike; regional and legacy. Never happened. Babbitt was once asked by a senior UAL Captain if he knew why he was elected. He said, "to represent you in DC." The Captain said, "No, we elected your A** to go to stand up to a judge and go to jail for us." You never saw a guy leave a meeting so fast.
Prater was a joke who openly said he had "Potomac fever" and was stupid enough to believe that it would lead to a cushy K Street (Lobbyist) job. Moak knew better. His K Street job was in the bag BEFORE he got elected. His job at DALPA and now at National was to help dismantle the regionals. He's doing a damn fine job and his minders are thrilled. He'll be fine and won't think twice of you as he waltzes out the door as Mass. Avenue to his new gig.
The GOOD staffers at ALPA...the unionized folks who really care and have done the work for all pilots over the years...have been brutalized. All the way up and down the chain, they see the end coming soon.
Read what he said and take it to heart.
This union is here to protect ALL of us. Just trying to prevent the Abu Dhabi pre-clear facilty isn't gonna cut it. This union as a WHOLE needs to SACK UP and put their damm foot down and say ENOUGH.
12-27-2013, 03:40 PM
#59
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I'm pretty sure ALPA national's lawyer that was in the room during the negotiations attended some of the PSA roadshows.
We were told this particular lawyer was THE lawyer at national.
Regardless of him being there or not a lot of what was told to us during the roadshows was heavily influenced on this lawyer's opinions on the quality of the TA.
I think it would be safe to assume that this lawyer has a close relationship with Moak.
We were told this particular lawyer was THE lawyer at national.
Regardless of him being there or not a lot of what was told to us during the roadshows was heavily influenced on this lawyer's opinions on the quality of the TA.
I think it would be safe to assume that this lawyer has a close relationship with Moak.
12-27-2013, 03:48 PM
#60
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
I'm pretty sure ALPA national's lawyer that was in the room during the negotiations attended some of the PSA roadshows.
We were told this particular lawyer was THE lawyer at national.
Regardless of him being there or not a lot of what was told to us during the roadshows was heavily influenced on this lawyer's opinions on the quality of the TA.
I think it would be safe to assume that this lawyer has a close relationship with Moak.
We were told this particular lawyer was THE lawyer at national.
Regardless of him being there or not a lot of what was told to us during the roadshows was heavily influenced on this lawyer's opinions on the quality of the TA.
I think it would be safe to assume that this lawyer has a close relationship with Moak.
Wow, your MEC and NC have you guys in the palm of their hands. They fleeced you big time.
It's their fault. Accept it, and do something about it. Recall their asses and make them prove to YOU why they deserve to represent you.
For what it's worth, ALPA employs approximately 20 attorneys all of whom answer to 2 directors of representation. Those 2 report to Moak. I'd be floored in any of those attorneys (beyond the older ones who have been around for 10-20 years) have spoken to Moak outside of a drunken conversation at the Board of Directors Meeting. In case your wondering, that's where all of ALPA and the MECs go to a resort in Florida and get loaded for 3 days of "meetings."
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