Initial FO Pay or Upgrade Times?
06-23-2014 | 06:06 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 584
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You mean other than just going out and flying those maneuvers on one's own? Get a friend, split the cost and go up together and get some experience?
06-23-2014 | 06:27 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,880
Likes: 194
Get a job in an ANG/reserve unit and make your time at the regionals a whole lot shorter and more enjoyable.
Free training that will likely change your life...
If the military isn't for you, well, I wouldn't recommend getting into this industry as straight civilian. Good luck.
Free training that will likely change your life...
If the military isn't for you, well, I wouldn't recommend getting into this industry as straight civilian. Good luck.
Once in UPT there is still a substantial washout rate. Many are high time pilots who fail to finish.
The civilian route may cost more but has a higher chance of success.
06-24-2014 | 10:10 AM
#73
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
By working for Boeing you also work for the airlines: multiple airlines across the world.
I'm assuming your offer is from Boeing since it seems obvious from the way you said it. Even if not, most of what I tell you, apply to whoever that offer is with.
My suggestion, if scheduling will somehow allow it, is take advantage of both of these opportunities. Take the Boeing job and attend ATP's Seattle location at KTIW. Do NOT pass up that Boeing job. It says a lot that one of the world's most prestigious and industry-leading aerospace companies would extend you such an offer and you should not take it so lightly. The connections you make there could end up landing you a Boeing test pilot seat or better someday. They design and build much more than transport category aircraft. You will get a chance to be among the first to put some cutting edge hardware through its paces, AND you will have a hand in writing the book on how to do it.
It will be a challenge, but judging from the way you have presented yourself here, you should have no problem working that job, completing a fast track pilot program, and building time as a CFI, etc. all at the same time if scheduling will allow it.
If you haven't yet, consider this possibility:
-You project 1.5 years before you're eligible to apply to the regionals. Over that time, you would put an extra $82.5K in your pocket if you are able to do both. Those extra resources will come in handy once you start your regional job, and you will have built a bridge with Boeing that you could use later in life.
To make $55K as a regional FO is dubious at best. It would take a combination of good pay scale, contract loopholes, and the knowledge of and ability to acceptably exploit those contract loopholes to pull it off. Maybe in the future regional FO pay will go there based off min guarantee alone, MAYBE, but there are no "maybe's" about what you say you have -right now-. Consider that Boeing will probably be giving you a raise after a year...
Hey, with the time you put in at Boeing, you may reach a point where they will work with you to the point of you being able to fly a line and somehow continue your Boeing job. If you reach a position whereby you don't have to report to Boeing everyday, you'll be looking at a very lucrative setup. The sooner you start, the sooner you reach it. Even if you sat reserve, you'll still be putting an extra $55K on top of whatever your airline gives you, and you'll still get some flying done. Still lucrative.
Here's another consideration. Let's use a higher paying regional and to keep it simple, assume min guarantee only. Also assume no raise is given at Boeing:
-3 years of best case regional only (make CA in 1 year): ~$145K
-Same regional scenario plus what you made at Boeing over the 1.5 year projection: ~$228K
-Same regional scenario plus if you are able to work both together (4.5 total years with Boeing): ~$393K
Don't cut yourself short. By your own admission, you have everything you need to make a -great- start on a -great- life for yourself right there in front of you right now. It's REALLY worth looking into to see if there is -any way- the scheduling can be worked out. If so, all you have to do is reach out and seize it all.
Look long-term as well as short-term for your life, not one or the other.
Watch it with these internet threads and what people tell you in person; in the end make your OWN decisions. There is a lot of good advice and a lot of bad advice; you must be able to pick the pepper from the fly droppings.
I'm sure most if not all of us here would love to have had the opportunity you do now. You're young, you love aviation, and BOEING has GIVEN you an invitation.
Enough said.
Oh, and BUMP that "you'll upgrade quick; they did/I did" bs. BUMP THAT. Don't fall for that crap. It IS a trap, don't believe otherwise. Just like any other trap you may snatch the prize before it snaps down on you, you may not. Don't play that game of chance if you don't have to, which it doesn't sound like you do. Get paid bro. You've got a golden opportunity. Realize it and use it.
06-24-2014 | 10:45 AM
#74
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
I haven't talked to any "Recruiter" or actually anyone "advocating" PSA however one of my friends just got hired on there and says he likes it, got off reserve already, and is line holding a CRJ900 with the attrition rate progressing fast... I mean "it sounds good" yes I know but I heard similar stuff on the forums here too..? I'm close to Charlotte CLT which there is a base from, I get I won't be there first probably but with high attrition maybe I could get to not commuting faster there? These are why your hearing PSA from me at what I know now...
Zero reserve is possible, but doubtful. There is usually at least a few months of it before one can hold anything. Holding leftovers each month is not really "holding a line" in its true meaning.
Could your friend be talking about holding a reserve line?
06-24-2014 | 04:58 PM
#75
sippin' dat koolaid
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 982
Likes: 0
From: gear slinger
Keep in mind the competition for ANG slots can be very high depending on the unit. You have to pass tests and then go before a board. If selected you then have to get a top secret clearance which is a change. If you have any credit issues you will not be granted the clearance.
Once in UPT there is still a substantial washout rate. Many are high time pilots who fail to finish.
The civilian route may cost more but has a higher chance of success.
Once in UPT there is still a substantial washout rate. Many are high time pilots who fail to finish.
The civilian route may cost more but has a higher chance of success.
06-24-2014 | 05:12 PM
#76
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
From: Captain CL-65
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Keep in mind the competition for ANG slots can be very high depending on the unit. You have to pass tests and then go before a board. If selected you then have to get a top secret clearance which is a change. If you have any credit issues you will not be granted the clearance.
Once in UPT there is still a substantial washout rate. Many are high time pilots who fail to finish.
The civilian route may cost more but has a higher chance of success.
And you have to pass the physical, which is more stringent than an FAA medical.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Keep in mind the competition for ANG slots can be very high depending on the unit. You have to pass tests and then go before a board. If selected you then have to get a top secret clearance which is a change. If you have any credit issues you will not be granted the clearance.
Once in UPT there is still a substantial washout rate. Many are high time pilots who fail to finish.
The civilian route may cost more but has a higher chance of success.
And you have to pass the physical, which is more stringent than an FAA medical.
) so I decided I had the grades to do OTS if I wanted later.
06-24-2014 | 05:19 PM
#77
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
From: Captain CL-65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboyxc91
... I worked at Boeing in Seattle WA for three whole summers on internship and have a full time job offer in hand with 55K starting out. ... I have no debt and have good savings for flight school.
This is awesome; you are in a great position. Sincerely, congratulations!
By working for Boeing you also work for the airlines: multiple airlines across the world.
I'm assuming your offer is from Boeing since it seems obvious from the way you said it. Even if not, most of what I tell you, apply to whoever that offer is with.
My suggestion, if scheduling will somehow allow it, is take advantage of both of these opportunities. Take the Boeing job and attend ATP's Seattle location at KTIW. Do NOT pass up that Boeing job. It says a lot that one of the world's most prestigious and industry-leading aerospace companies would extend you such an offer and you should not take it so lightly. The connections you make there could end up landing you a Boeing test pilot seat or better someday. They design and build much more than transport category aircraft. You will get a chance to be among the first to put some cutting edge hardware through its paces, AND you will have a hand in writing the book on how to do it.
It will be a challenge, but judging from the way you have presented yourself here, you should have no problem working that job, completing a fast track pilot program, and building time as a CFI, etc. all at the same time if scheduling will allow it.
If you haven't yet, consider this possibility:
-You project 1.5 years before you're eligible to apply to the regionals. Over that time, you would put an extra $82.5K in your pocket if you are able to do both. Those extra resources will come in handy once you start your regional job, and you will have built a bridge with Boeing that you could use later in life.
To make $55K as a regional FO is dubious at best. It would take a combination of good pay scale, contract loopholes, and the knowledge of and ability to acceptably exploit those contract loopholes to pull it off. Maybe in the future regional FO pay will go there based off min guarantee alone, MAYBE, but there are no "maybe's" about what you say you have -right now-. Consider that Boeing will probably be giving you a raise after a year...
Hey, with the time you put in at Boeing, you may reach a point where they will work with you to the point of you being able to fly a line and somehow continue your Boeing job. If you reach a position whereby you don't have to report to Boeing everyday, you'll be looking at a very lucrative setup. The sooner you start, the sooner you reach it. Even if you sat reserve, you'll still be putting an extra $55K on top of whatever your airline gives you, and you'll still get some flying done. Still lucrative.
Here's another consideration. Let's use a higher paying regional and to keep it simple, assume min guarantee only. Also assume no raise is given at Boeing:
-3 years of best case regional only (make CA in 1 year): ~$145K
-Same regional scenario plus what you made at Boeing over the 1.5 year projection: ~$228K
-Same regional scenario plus if you are able to work both together (4.5 total years with Boeing): ~$393K
Don't cut yourself short. By your own admission, you have everything you need to make a -great- start on a -great- life for yourself right there in front of you right now. It's REALLY worth looking into to see if there is -any way- the scheduling can be worked out. If so, all you have to do is reach out and seize it all.
Look long-term as well as short-term for your life, not one or the other.
Watch it with these internet threads and what people tell you in person; in the end make your OWN decisions. There is a lot of good advice and a lot of bad advice; you must be able to pick the pepper from the fly droppings.
I'm sure most if not all of us here would love to have had the opportunity you do now. You're young, you love aviation, and BOEING has GIVEN you an invitation.
Enough said.
Oh, and BUMP that "you'll upgrade quick; they did/I did" bs. BUMP THAT. Don't fall for that crap. It IS a trap, don't believe otherwise. Just like any other trap you may snatch the prize before it snaps down on you, you may not. Don't play that game of chance if you don't have to, which it doesn't sound like you do. Get paid bro. You've got a golden opportunity. Realize it and use it.
Originally Posted by Flyboyxc91
... I worked at Boeing in Seattle WA for three whole summers on internship and have a full time job offer in hand with 55K starting out. ... I have no debt and have good savings for flight school.
This is awesome; you are in a great position. Sincerely, congratulations!
By working for Boeing you also work for the airlines: multiple airlines across the world.
I'm assuming your offer is from Boeing since it seems obvious from the way you said it. Even if not, most of what I tell you, apply to whoever that offer is with.
My suggestion, if scheduling will somehow allow it, is take advantage of both of these opportunities. Take the Boeing job and attend ATP's Seattle location at KTIW. Do NOT pass up that Boeing job. It says a lot that one of the world's most prestigious and industry-leading aerospace companies would extend you such an offer and you should not take it so lightly. The connections you make there could end up landing you a Boeing test pilot seat or better someday. They design and build much more than transport category aircraft. You will get a chance to be among the first to put some cutting edge hardware through its paces, AND you will have a hand in writing the book on how to do it.
It will be a challenge, but judging from the way you have presented yourself here, you should have no problem working that job, completing a fast track pilot program, and building time as a CFI, etc. all at the same time if scheduling will allow it.
If you haven't yet, consider this possibility:
-You project 1.5 years before you're eligible to apply to the regionals. Over that time, you would put an extra $82.5K in your pocket if you are able to do both. Those extra resources will come in handy once you start your regional job, and you will have built a bridge with Boeing that you could use later in life.
To make $55K as a regional FO is dubious at best. It would take a combination of good pay scale, contract loopholes, and the knowledge of and ability to acceptably exploit those contract loopholes to pull it off. Maybe in the future regional FO pay will go there based off min guarantee alone, MAYBE, but there are no "maybe's" about what you say you have -right now-. Consider that Boeing will probably be giving you a raise after a year...
Hey, with the time you put in at Boeing, you may reach a point where they will work with you to the point of you being able to fly a line and somehow continue your Boeing job. If you reach a position whereby you don't have to report to Boeing everyday, you'll be looking at a very lucrative setup. The sooner you start, the sooner you reach it. Even if you sat reserve, you'll still be putting an extra $55K on top of whatever your airline gives you, and you'll still get some flying done. Still lucrative.
Here's another consideration. Let's use a higher paying regional and to keep it simple, assume min guarantee only. Also assume no raise is given at Boeing:
-3 years of best case regional only (make CA in 1 year): ~$145K
-Same regional scenario plus what you made at Boeing over the 1.5 year projection: ~$228K
-Same regional scenario plus if you are able to work both together (4.5 total years with Boeing): ~$393K
Don't cut yourself short. By your own admission, you have everything you need to make a -great- start on a -great- life for yourself right there in front of you right now. It's REALLY worth looking into to see if there is -any way- the scheduling can be worked out. If so, all you have to do is reach out and seize it all.
Look long-term as well as short-term for your life, not one or the other.
Watch it with these internet threads and what people tell you in person; in the end make your OWN decisions. There is a lot of good advice and a lot of bad advice; you must be able to pick the pepper from the fly droppings.
I'm sure most if not all of us here would love to have had the opportunity you do now. You're young, you love aviation, and BOEING has GIVEN you an invitation.
Enough said.
Oh, and BUMP that "you'll upgrade quick; they did/I did" bs. BUMP THAT. Don't fall for that crap. It IS a trap, don't believe otherwise. Just like any other trap you may snatch the prize before it snaps down on you, you may not. Don't play that game of chance if you don't have to, which it doesn't sound like you do. Get paid bro. You've got a golden opportunity. Realize it and use it.
during the internship days.
06-24-2014 | 05:34 PM
#78
Banned
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 962
Likes: 0
Another "wrinkle" in this whole discussion is the simple fact that not every pilot has the ability to be an effective instructor. Just because some guy has the $$ and time to get through this ATP program doesn't mean he should instruct when he comes out the other end. He may be a fine pilot but turning around an immediately becoming an instructor seems like a bad plan.
Part of being an effective instructor is having some experience and just simple repetitive exposure to the things you'll be instructing. Watching someone else and then telling them what they did wrong isn't instructing - anyone can do that. The skill comes in several key spots:
Before the flight - be able to describe, in detail, how to fly a particular maneuver (pitch, power, hands, feet, the feel of the aircraft, etc. - you don't know that unless you've done it a LOT).
During - anticipate common mistakes (so your student doesn't kill you), know how to offer in-flight instruction, when to ST FU and when each is appropriate
After - most importantly, to be able to ID all errors (and good stuff) AND to find out why they did what they did. You can't offer instruction on how to fix errors if you don't know why a student is making the errors.
Being good at this doesn't just happen because some pilot paid enough money and made it to point "X" in some pilot mill's syllabus. There's no substitute for experience and that's what's going to help make a good instructor, IMO.
Part of being an effective instructor is having some experience and just simple repetitive exposure to the things you'll be instructing. Watching someone else and then telling them what they did wrong isn't instructing - anyone can do that. The skill comes in several key spots:
Before the flight - be able to describe, in detail, how to fly a particular maneuver (pitch, power, hands, feet, the feel of the aircraft, etc. - you don't know that unless you've done it a LOT).
During - anticipate common mistakes (so your student doesn't kill you), know how to offer in-flight instruction, when to ST FU and when each is appropriate
After - most importantly, to be able to ID all errors (and good stuff) AND to find out why they did what they did. You can't offer instruction on how to fix errors if you don't know why a student is making the errors.
Being good at this doesn't just happen because some pilot paid enough money and made it to point "X" in some pilot mill's syllabus. There's no substitute for experience and that's what's going to help make a good instructor, IMO.
06-24-2014 | 06:45 PM
#79
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
From: OO-RJ
So much hate for ATP. Expensive yes. Worth it? Its up to you. But I started fast track from 0 hours in May 2009. Had >1500 hours and a class date from Skywest in Sept 2011. 1640hrs when I started class. I didn't work for them as the pay sucked but chose an FBO close to home. I have a lot of debt but I'd do it again.
06-24-2014 | 07:04 PM
#80
Banned
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,222
Likes: 0
First piece of advice,....don't take too much advice( negative) from disgruntled pilots.. Especially those who may have only been in the industry 2,3,4 or 5 years....
The job, in most forms, beats any 9-5 I can think of...
The only thing at your age that can make life more difficult is a long term relationship, or heaven forbid marriage and kids before you are ready. What I mean is, if you have some serious relationship as your just starting out, life will be difficult.. If you can hold off from having a serious relationship until your well into flying and have some experience then that will make life a bit easier... You'll have more options the older and more experienced you get. Plus, when your just starting out you will most likely need to be mobile.. Which relationships make more difficult...
Another thing is move to whatever base you get.. If you are the type that can adapt and make new friends easily you'll be all set... Some just can't let go of their friends and hometowns.. Thus commute, and end up usually hating the job.
Also as stated before.. The job is not that glamorous... You won't be scoring chicks on layovers, flight attendants aren't all over you're junk every trip, and typically the only people who are even somewhat impressed about pilot talk are older men.., and sometimes grandma aged women will think your pretty neat.
But when you're 24-30 and able to travel wherever you want while all your old friends are stuck doing the 1 vacation per year, or no vacations, you appreciate the job. ( my first airline job was at 22, was single and traveled to Florida monthly while my friends up in the NE never went anywhere)
If you get into the career because you enjoy flying, want to earn a fair amount of money eventually, and don't get into it for widebody Europe flights right away, you will enjoy the journey...
The job, in most forms, beats any 9-5 I can think of...
The only thing at your age that can make life more difficult is a long term relationship, or heaven forbid marriage and kids before you are ready. What I mean is, if you have some serious relationship as your just starting out, life will be difficult.. If you can hold off from having a serious relationship until your well into flying and have some experience then that will make life a bit easier... You'll have more options the older and more experienced you get. Plus, when your just starting out you will most likely need to be mobile.. Which relationships make more difficult...
Another thing is move to whatever base you get.. If you are the type that can adapt and make new friends easily you'll be all set... Some just can't let go of their friends and hometowns.. Thus commute, and end up usually hating the job.
Also as stated before.. The job is not that glamorous... You won't be scoring chicks on layovers, flight attendants aren't all over you're junk every trip, and typically the only people who are even somewhat impressed about pilot talk are older men.., and sometimes grandma aged women will think your pretty neat.
But when you're 24-30 and able to travel wherever you want while all your old friends are stuck doing the 1 vacation per year, or no vacations, you appreciate the job. ( my first airline job was at 22, was single and traveled to Florida monthly while my friends up in the NE never went anywhere)
If you get into the career because you enjoy flying, want to earn a fair amount of money eventually, and don't get into it for widebody Europe flights right away, you will enjoy the journey...
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