Right, we are a regional, operating aircraft, making more profit (read: higher margins) than any major airline. We have greater margins than ANY OTHER AIRLINE. Please explain to me again how they can't afford a better paying pilot contract. Give me a break.

Spirit on the other hand operates on super thin margins, and their management could argue they really couldn't afford to pay their pilots more. That is NOT the case here.

 

Since 2007 BB'S compensation increased by 17% . If my NC not asking for a penalty for the company to drag these negotiations this long, they are not deserving my support.

Remember, If you are ready to sign at the dotted line this next contract will be your next for next 10 years. Oh, you say that won't be the case? Tell that to the people who left mesa, transtates, Eagle in 2007 for quick upgrades in rah.

do you seriously think $1bil. was accurate enough? In that case i have a beach property for sale in Sahara for you

 

With all due respect to Scudrunner, he is either not seeing the big picture, or is seeing the big picture and has already factored in the problem of pilot dealing in business. What is the problem that pilots have in business - we want to solve the problem of the guy on the other side of the negotiating table. We want to cut our own throats as a sign of good will to the opposition. Examples, I have a hundred of them.

Colgan crash happens after standards get to the point that they cannot get any lower. Colgan crash happens when the pilots have to commute in across the country because at 16k a year they can't afford to live in their base or really even have a crash pad. FAA and congress impose new higher standards. The future is obvious, cost to be a pilot will go up, there will be less pilots, salaries will have to go up dramatically, once salaries go up people will start to go into the industry and salaries with then start to go down to the proper level but much higher than the original level. Alpa goes in with a 100 proposals to lower the standards: Take an hour course on how to use a radar and get 100 hours of flight credit, go to certain schools and get lower flight hours required, on and on. Pilots complain about the standards because they see themselves just starting out rather than having already accomplished something.

Example two, and the reason that Republic, Gojet, etc do not have contracts: Lack of pilots means no applicants for what they are paying under their contracts. Common sense tells the company that they had better finish the contract and pay more if they want to fly their planes. But wait, the union and the pilots to the rescue! Gives the new guys a bonus to come to the company. Great idea pilots and union, you solved the company's problem. Why finish a contract and pay everyone more when we only have to pay the guy at the bottom?

I'm starting to agree with Scudrunner and I need to accept reality. When pilots have the chance to succeed they are going to come up with some way to sabotage it. There is not going to be a decent contract because there is absolutely no reason for the companies to give you one. We won't rock the boat, we won't do anything but take what we are given.

We want to feel we are contributing to the company so we take from our families and we give it to the company. We solve their problems!

 

At my airline the vp of operations told me that we were not going to get an industry leading contract but would get one somewhere in the middle.

I wish I had known the followup questions to ask, but at this airline you don't really want to ask a followup question if you want to have a job the next day. If I could I would ask how we would get pilots into the door at those rates? Looking at it today, I think his response would be that the bonuses are here to stay. They are too profitable for the airline. They can pay 90% of the pilots well below market rates and simply give the new guy a few extra dollars.

I think we need to face the fact that giving bonuses to the new guy has replaced contract rates and even market rates of pay. If you want to get paid a fair wage after the first year you had better head out of the country.

Just think of how effective the bonus is in saving the company money; they can advertise starting pay at 30k or 40k and everyone will assume it goes up rapidly from there. Who would guess that it would go down? Everyone else, take what you are given because the bonuses are here to stay.

 

The hiring bonuses were imposed unilaterally by the company. Union approval was not needed as new hires are technically not yet union members, so they do not fall under the CBA. The union had no say in it, and protested to the usual no avail.

 

People who are wowed into an airline job by even a 20k bonus are dim. They don't understand that the bonus after taxes will be roughly 65% of their original bonus. I would rather have higher pay scale than a fancy bonus.

 

60%?? So the endeavor pilots are really only seeing an $8000/yr bonus instead of 20k?

 

After taxes, yes.

 

Thank you for helping me make my point. As a pilot it is our natural tendency to want to help our enemy and support them. I wish what you said were true. The bonuses could not be there without the approval of the unions. They could easily go to federal court and get an injunction to stop the bonuses as a violation of the status quo. Truth is they either have bad legal advise or they want the bonuses.

And the new hires are under the CBA. The CBA covers everyone in the bargaining group by law. This is true even if the covered employee chooses not to be a member of the union. When union representation is voted in by a bargaining group and a CBA is entered into, individual ability to negotiate ones own deal is lost and the CBA controls. A company cannot pay any employee covered under the CBA except under the terms of the CBA. Special deals are not allowed.

Everyone on this site can research the limits of "status quo" and you will come to the same conclusion yourself. I posted a list of cases discussing status quo and how the bonuses are a violation of status quo and my posts were deleted by the administrator. I will start another thread discussing status quo and we can see how long it lasts. I'm happy to debate the issue anytime.

 

This is what makes me puke about unions. New hires whom make very little money to begin actually are making (close to) livable wages with these bonuses and the union wants to shut it down? Give me a frigging break. Do you know how bad ALPA looked when pointed out the disparity in pay in a Congressional hearing? It was embarrassing.

Giving an 18 year lifer a $15-$20/hr raise but a new hire a $5/hr raise is a joke and the unions should be ashamed of it.