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Old 08-23-2015 | 08:55 AM
  #1441  
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Originally Posted by Beast
So, to clarify, the Republic guys are not bound by the Railway Act, because their union is not an "airline" union? Or, the republic guys are subject to the Railway Act, by virtue of being airline employees? Alternately, neither is important, their union by-laws mandate a vote?
Republic does fall under the RLA. Congress is granted this jurisdiction due to the interstate commerce clause of the constitution. Teamster bylaws dictate that if a company submits a last, best, final offer it must be submitted to the labor group for a vote.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 08:55 AM
  #1442  
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Originally Posted by CBreezy
Who should represent the regional guys then?
An independent union.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 08:59 AM
  #1443  
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Originally Posted by LoudFastRules
In an ideal world, your theory would be correct. However look at Virgin America and JetBlue. Both companies made a big deal about how good it was to treat employees properly and how unions weren't required at "good" companies. Both airlines recently voted in ALPA by large majorities.

In your example of the pilots who called in sick, they would all be fired. Over and done, with no union to fight for them and get them back to work with back pay.

All airlines need unions. The IBT sucks. ALPA sucks. I'm sure plenty of the in-house unions suck too. Guess what, the airline management groups suck more. The unions' suckiness is still significantly better than having no union at all. Despite their many flaws, unions are an absolute necessity in the airline world, especially when safety is a concern.
An employee that abuses sick time should be fired and not able to get their job back.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 09:00 AM
  #1444  
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Originally Posted by FirstClass
Ideally, I think regional airlines should go completely union less. Here is my arguments why.

  1. The company doesn't abide by your contract anyway, save your money (for that matter any regional airline)
  2. There would be no organization to sue in the event that one or more pilots decided to be sick (unsanctioned work action). Who would remind the pilots to fall back in line? Nobody.
  3. It's an employees market right now, supply and demand leverage
  4. I hypothesize the union is nothing more than the enforcement arm of the company's wishes. Imagine the company having to deal with employees as individuals instead of collectively. The ensuing chaos would force the company to reconsider a variety of practices.
  5. Regional airline pilot unions have had decades to figure out proper wording of contracts yet they still pass contracts with vague wording open to interpretation after all these years, why?
For these reasons, I believe the company needs a union more than the pilots need a union. Further, I hypothesize that the company would fear losing the union and their control.

Essentially, what I'm trying to do here is get you to imagine what it would be like for the company to have to deal with the pilot group as individuals instead of as a collective group.

Guess you can always ask the guys at SkyWest. They are the only non-union regional carrier in the Country that I know of. They have a pilot representation group comprised of elected pilots, but I think SkyWest pays for the expenses, not the general pilot group. Personally I am anti-union, I know they had a huge place in the labor world back when they originally surfaced to keep work places safe and keep pay above 10 cents a day, but in today's day and age with all of the labor laws in place and everything, I would much rather work with a pilot representative group than a bunch of people who are essentially being representatives just to make money. Not to mention, can anyone honestly say that a large airline union really cares about representing the regionals, where they get much less money, as much as say DL where they take in a much larger $$$ amount? Just my 2 cents.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 09:05 AM
  #1445  
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Originally Posted by LoudFastRules
In an ideal world, your theory would be correct. However look at Virgin America and JetBlue. Both companies made a big deal about how good it was to treat employees properly and how unions weren't required at "good" companies. Both airlines recently voted in ALPA by large majorities.

In your example of the pilots who called in sick, they would all be fired. Over and done, with no union to fight for them and get them back to work with back pay.

All airlines need unions. The IBT sucks. ALPA sucks. I'm sure plenty of the in-house unions suck too. Guess what, the airline management groups suck more. The unions' suckiness is still significantly better than having no union at all. Despite their many flaws, unions are an absolute necessity in the airline world, especially when safety is a concern.
Airlines such as jetblue voted in alpa simply for the merger language as far as seniority list integration. Don't get me wrong, I think alpa is ok at the lcc/major level, just not at the regional level. I don't advocate going unionless just because I think the company is a cool place to work for a period in time. Alpa simply doesn't represent regional pilots. I don't think you will find anyone to disagree. Alpa is currently working on stuff like "fee for departure interview tips" and the like. Regionals shouldn't even exist.

The company may try to make an example of a few pilots who call in sick, but if you are sick you are sick, that's creeping up into whistleblower area. Companies generally don't fire employees in safety sensitive areas for being sick, imagine the press. Take this example to another extreme, 200 pilots call in sick. Now what? Fire who? Sue who?

To address your final point, I question any pilots worth or judgment who needs to rely on a union for matters of safety? Where's your captain authority? Where is your safety and moral compass? Do you care about yourself, your family, and your passengers? Being captain is more than just holding it on the seniority list.

If not now then when.

PS - as soon as you guys sign this thing which I know you will, bankruptcy will be next.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 09:12 AM
  #1446  
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Originally Posted by Skyhawk121
Guess you can always ask the guys at SkyWest. They are the only non-union regional carrier in the Country that I know of. They have a pilot representation group comprised of elected pilots, but I think SkyWest pays for the expenses, not the general pilot group. Personally I am anti-union, I know they had a huge place in the labor world back when they originally surfaced to keep work places safe and keep pay above 10 cents a day, but in today's day and age with all of the labor laws in place and everything, I would much rather work with a pilot representative group than a bunch of people who are essentially being representatives just to make money. Not to mention, can anyone honestly say that a large airline union really cares about representing the regionals, where they get much less money, as much as say DL where they take in a much larger $$$ amount? Just my 2 cents.
Actually, I'm not advocating even having a "representation group" as you put it. I'm advocating having absolutely nothing. Let the company figure out all matters. Deal with pilots one on one.

My idea is unique, but it has the "never been tried before" thing going for it. I think the company would fear it more than the pilots. It's unexplored territory and maybe things can be learned from it. But to keep doing the same thing over and over again with no result is insanity. Many of you are new to this, but this same theme has been repeating for the last 30 years over and over again.

Republic's going out of business, its too late for them. There is simply not enough pilots to keep Republic going in its current form over the next couple of years.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 09:13 AM
  #1447  
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If most everyone agree ALPA has an inherent conflict of interest, what's to stop regional pilots from forming their own association ? In fact, I'll offer up a name: Regional Airline Pilots Association (RALPA)
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Old 08-23-2015 | 09:16 AM
  #1448  
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Originally Posted by deepwater
If most everyone agree ALPA has an inherent conflict of interest, what's to stop regional pilots from forming their own association ? In fact, I'll offer up a name: Regional Airline Pilots Association (RALPA)
That's what skywest has.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 09:41 AM
  #1449  
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PS - as soon as you guys sign this thing which I know you will, bankruptcy will be next.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure where this little bit of wisdom is coming from, but it is not correct. RAH will not go from the 4th most profitable airline in the WORLD to bankrupt in a year. All you are doing is propagating fear that is being pushed out by the company. They can afford much more than what they are offering, they are already sending out feelers in all the bases trying to see what they need to do to sweeten the deal. The language used in the proposal is what is getting the most pushback. I would look for more offers to come in the next few weeks.

And to your later comment that pilots are in to short supply to sustain RAH, even with the current language in the LBFO, FO's would trip over themselves to get here. It's sad but true. 40 dollars an hour to start, trip/ duty rigs, min day and full cancelation pay. Plus we have another 53 e Jet's arriving over the next year. Couple that with the E145 extension and the mystery of the cseries and upgrades will drop sharply with the addition of new hires (currently at 3 years and dropping). People will leave other regionals to get here as fast as they've been jumping to PSA/Compass/Mesa this year. This is just the truth, and I'm a no voter, not trying to sell this.
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Old 08-23-2015 | 09:59 AM
  #1450  
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Originally Posted by TurbineTime

I am not sure where this little bit of wisdom is coming from, but it is not correct. RAH will not go from the 4th most profitable airline in the WORLD to bankrupt in a year. All you are doing is propagating fear that is being pushed out by the company. They can afford much more than what they are offering, they are already sending out feelers in all the bases trying to see what they need to do to sweeten the deal. The language used in the proposal is what is getting the most pushback. I would look for more offers to come in the next few weeks.

And to your later comment that pilots are in to short supply to sustain RAH, even with the current language in the LBFO, FO's would trip over themselves to get here. It's sad but true. 40 dollars an hour to start, trip/ duty rigs, min day and full cancelation pay. Plus we have another 53 e Jet's arriving over the next year. Couple that with the E145 extension and the mystery of the cseries and upgrades will drop sharply with the addition of new hires (currently at 3 years and dropping). People will leave other regionals to get here as fast as they've been jumping to PSA/Compass/Mesa this year. This is just the truth, and I'm a no voter, not trying to sell this.
Republic is going to reorganize. You don't see that? You don't see the airplanes just sitting around with bills to be paid? You don't see the flying has been given away into 2016?

What pilots are you going to attract at 40/hour? Where are they coming from? The great FO shuffle is over. Said FO's will be captains in a year, they are not leaving their current airlines to come sit at republic for a 7 year upgrade or whatever its down to today.

Unfortunately, reorganization has nothing to do with money anymore. It's everything that's wrong with bankruptcy law in this country.

What other explanation is there for seabury?
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