Wheels falling off at RAH
#1431
First the EBoard must decide if it truly is an LBFO.
If yes, then sent out for a member vote.
If voted down, then the union and company are released to immediate self help, ie the union could withhold services (aka strike).
This though, isn't permitted by a union controlled by the RLA.
Hence the problem and why a pilot union shouldn't be represented by the IBT.
If yes, then sent out for a member vote.
If voted down, then the union and company are released to immediate self help, ie the union could withhold services (aka strike).
This though, isn't permitted by a union controlled by the RLA.
Hence the problem and why a pilot union shouldn't be represented by the IBT.
#1432
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Remember, these are the same people who have been stringing you along for 7 or 8 years while making a fortune (completely planned and carried out strategy, its not just an accident). They want this badly.
The pilot group can re take the momentum ONLY if they remain unified. If not the company will steamroll you.
I do not understand why the Teamsters have not countered. What they should be doing it refusing to address the "LBFO" and attack the leadership to the Board of Directors, IN Washington DC. Let them know this fight will continue as long as the current leadership remains.
The pilot group can re take the momentum ONLY if they remain unified. If not the company will steamroll you.
I do not understand why the Teamsters have not countered. What they should be doing it refusing to address the "LBFO" and attack the leadership to the Board of Directors, IN Washington DC. Let them know this fight will continue as long as the current leadership remains.
#1433
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
I usually only posted in the USAir/AWA/AA thread and recently decided to stop posting, but I liked your post and wanted to reply.
Good on you, you are using critical thinking skills. Answer to the question is absolutely yes. Think a bit. The company rolls out what they call their LBFO. Why? Then they roll it out in Washington DC, not company headquarters. Why? Completely bypass the NC and union. Why? Post show up saying VERY GENTLY it is better than what we have and it will pass. Why?
Remember, these are the same people who have been stringing you along for 7 or 8 years while making a fortune (completely planned and carried out strategy, its not just an accident). They want this badly. They are paying a lot of money for this counsel and advice. Everything they are doing is a legal strategy. The pilot group can re take the momentum ONLY if they remain unified. If not the company will steamroll you. I have looked at the language. There are plenty of landmines throughout that product. I know because I spent a career writing landmines into contracts. Refuse to bite. I do not understand why the Teamsters have not countered. What they should be doing it refusing to address the "LBFO" and attack the leadership to the Board of Directors, IN Washington DC. Let them know this fight will continue as long as the current leadership remains. If BB does not control the majority stock, the board could send him to the showers. If the company cannot attract new hires, they are going to lose a ton of money. That is something they will try to avoid, even if the cost is firing BB. This offer is of course better than what you have. But the million dollar question is " Is this better than what we could have?". Cave and you will eat crap for years (those landmines). Refuse to follow and make/FORCE the company play nice. Still won't matter if the company files Chapter 11. But perhaps if the BODs listens, they will fire BB and replace him with another Herb K.
Good on you, you are using critical thinking skills. Answer to the question is absolutely yes. Think a bit. The company rolls out what they call their LBFO. Why? Then they roll it out in Washington DC, not company headquarters. Why? Completely bypass the NC and union. Why? Post show up saying VERY GENTLY it is better than what we have and it will pass. Why?
Remember, these are the same people who have been stringing you along for 7 or 8 years while making a fortune (completely planned and carried out strategy, its not just an accident). They want this badly. They are paying a lot of money for this counsel and advice. Everything they are doing is a legal strategy. The pilot group can re take the momentum ONLY if they remain unified. If not the company will steamroll you. I have looked at the language. There are plenty of landmines throughout that product. I know because I spent a career writing landmines into contracts. Refuse to bite. I do not understand why the Teamsters have not countered. What they should be doing it refusing to address the "LBFO" and attack the leadership to the Board of Directors, IN Washington DC. Let them know this fight will continue as long as the current leadership remains. If BB does not control the majority stock, the board could send him to the showers. If the company cannot attract new hires, they are going to lose a ton of money. That is something they will try to avoid, even if the cost is firing BB. This offer is of course better than what you have. But the million dollar question is " Is this better than what we could have?". Cave and you will eat crap for years (those landmines). Refuse to follow and make/FORCE the company play nice. Still won't matter if the company files Chapter 11. But perhaps if the BODs listens, they will fire BB and replace him with another Herb K.
They insinuate instead of handing over this supposedly wonderful offer (again bypassing the union negotiators and pressuring the weakest source - the pilots), they would file chapter 11 meaning the the pilots would get a worse deal. Think about that for a minute.......
If they were to do that, it would only exacerbate they very problem of what they are trying to solve. With concessions or no truly significant improvements, their future would be in even more jeopardy putting the point of chapter 11 into question and actually putting them closer to chapter 7. Republic is still a viable company and any restructuring would be pointless if they were to gut the pilots further. The card trick here is to "manage the pilots expectations" and that is why they are negotiating directly with them and using fear grenades to push their offer over the finish line. The biggest disaster in this deal isn't a particular pay rate or work rule, but ambiguity that makes much of the deal subjective to the whims of management. It's a slick game and part of the process of union-busting. Just how are unions "busted" nowadays ?
Not by elimination, but by nullification. That is why they have bypassed the union and are essentially functioning without them and directly with the pilots. As long as these managements can successfully shape pilot GROUPS expectations by altering the landscape like this, the pilots will be unwitting accomplices to their own marginalization. True success for the pilots here is not just a fair contract with real improvements, it's recognition by management of the structure of the union and respecting that. Nothing has changed for RAH pilots with this offer except the solidifcation of their own demise and the essential unrecognition of their own union. As long as that occurs, the pilots will ALWAYS lose.
#1434
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,150
Likes: 0
So, to clarify, the Republic guys are not bound by the Railway Act, because their union is not an "airline" union? Or, the republic guys are subject to the Railway Act, by virtue of being airline employees? Alternately, neither is important, their union by-laws mandate a vote?
1. Bound by the RLA
2. IBT bylaws written without consideration for the RLA (NOT the local union by laws)
It's really not difficult to understand.
#1435
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
From: Left Seat
All of the Republic/SA pilots I know have either departed (to Compass, Mesa, Skywest and 135 charter) or are planning to leave with resumes out. I think Republic will find it very difficult to attract new pilots with its terrible, pilot-unfriendly reputation. This drawn-out contract process certainly has not helped.
#1436
So if this truly is the LBFO and it's voted down, that implies Republic wouldn't give more and the pilots won't accept less, essentially putting everyone at an impasse. Is that not a reasonable point at which the pilots would likely be released to self-help within the framework of the RLA?
#1437
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
I have a question for you all. Usually, I try and be diplomatic, encourage debate, and try to listen to opposing views, but I'm not going to do that with today's post because I don't think there is a valid opposing view, the environment has changed. If you disagree with me then you are an idiot and will be stealing from your wife and from your kids.
Here are the starting pay rates for a CRJ-700 Captain at a Japanese
airline that will be in Denver recruiting pilots. Since they are here looking I am assuming they pay much less than the others who are not having to come here.
Net Monthly Salary (After all Japan tax)
During Training
USD6,440.00
1st Year
Non-Commuting
USD8,220.00
Commuting
USD7,630.00
2nd Year
Non-Commuting
USD8,820.00
Commuting
USD8,120.00
Completion Bonus
JPY2,000,000 (USD17,000 at current rate) After all Japan tax
Accommodation
Housing Allowance Available
Days off from work
10 Days Off for Non-Commuting Pilot per month
18 Days Consecutive Days Off in 2 Months for Commuting Pilot
Vacation
24 Days per Year (Non-Commuting)
20 Days per Year (Commuting)
Ticket Allowance
With the bonus, after training, the first year salary is $102,890 and second year it is 110,090.
In the past there was a simple reason that they had to pay more, we had lots of available pilots they did not. Supply and demand.
Are there a lot of extra pilots in the US now? No, so that difference no longer exists.
So my question is, wait, wait, wait!
Why are you considering less? Why is there a debate, why is there even a discussion?
Republic pays a first year captain 64 an hour times a guarantee of 75x 12 months = $57600. A 5 year captain is 77x75x12= $69300. Therefore, a republic pilot is making $45,290 less than starting at this other airline. Being pilots we will lie to ourselves by saying if we give up our days off we can make 10 hours more a month to make another $11520. That way we can compare apples to oranges so that the difference is only $33770. An emotional defense so we don't feel so stupid. But you could fly overtime at the other airline too so lets not lie to ourselves and realize it is a difference of $45,290 on an apple/apple basis.
On the EMB-145 it is 50 x 75 x 12 = 45,000. Difference is $57,890.
At Gojet they pay 65 x 74 x 12 = $57720 (120 a year more than Republic's best airplane, tell me the airlines are not getting together to decide what they are going to pay you!) That is a difference of $45,170. per year.
The market is telling you that you should make a minimum of $45170 a year more than what you are being paid. What is the union looking at getting you, a 10, may 20% increase? Why are you doing that? over 10 years that is $451,700.
You need to tell the companies that you are being offered $102,890 by the competition for a first year captain, nobody, absolutely nobody should be considering agreeing to a dollar less! That is the already the level, they need to beat that number.
Everyone needs to remember these two numbers, $102,890 for a first year captain and $110,090 for a 5 year captain. You need to make sure that everyone you fly with knows these 2 numbers. You need to take a tube of lipstick and write it on your mirror at home and leave it there, you need to write it on your hotel mirror and leave it there when you check out. You need to show the number to your wife and kids and even your mother-in-law because that is your minimum worth, that is what you deserve as a minimum, any dollar less and you are being robbed.
Tell your wife, kids, and mother-in-law what these numbers are. Tell them about how the pilot shortage has hit the US and how the airlines are having problems getting pilots. Then, I dare you, explain to them why you are considering voting for a contract that would pay less!
I want to see these numbers everywhere. I want every CEO to know these numbers. I want every chief pilot to know these numbers. In fact I want both the chief pilot's wife and girl friend to know these numbers! I want every pilot scheduler to know these numbers. I want the schedulers to understand why they can't get pilots to fly for $75 dollars per hour less then the competition in Japan pays to fly an hour of overtime.
$102,890 and $110,090 should be the first numbers you look at when a contract is being offered. If the numbers are not bigger than that then don't bother reading any more! Stop settling for a $36 hotel room 3 times a month and get what the market demands. KDA, Know what you are worth, Demand what you are worth, Accept nothing less!
102890 and 110,090!
Here are the starting pay rates for a CRJ-700 Captain at a Japanese
airline that will be in Denver recruiting pilots. Since they are here looking I am assuming they pay much less than the others who are not having to come here.
Net Monthly Salary (After all Japan tax)
During Training
USD6,440.00
1st Year
Non-Commuting
USD8,220.00
Commuting
USD7,630.00
2nd Year
Non-Commuting
USD8,820.00
Commuting
USD8,120.00
Completion Bonus
JPY2,000,000 (USD17,000 at current rate) After all Japan tax
Accommodation
Housing Allowance Available
Days off from work
10 Days Off for Non-Commuting Pilot per month
18 Days Consecutive Days Off in 2 Months for Commuting Pilot
Vacation
24 Days per Year (Non-Commuting)
20 Days per Year (Commuting)
Ticket Allowance
With the bonus, after training, the first year salary is $102,890 and second year it is 110,090.
In the past there was a simple reason that they had to pay more, we had lots of available pilots they did not. Supply and demand.
Are there a lot of extra pilots in the US now? No, so that difference no longer exists.
So my question is, wait, wait, wait!
Why are you considering less? Why is there a debate, why is there even a discussion?
Republic pays a first year captain 64 an hour times a guarantee of 75x 12 months = $57600. A 5 year captain is 77x75x12= $69300. Therefore, a republic pilot is making $45,290 less than starting at this other airline. Being pilots we will lie to ourselves by saying if we give up our days off we can make 10 hours more a month to make another $11520. That way we can compare apples to oranges so that the difference is only $33770. An emotional defense so we don't feel so stupid. But you could fly overtime at the other airline too so lets not lie to ourselves and realize it is a difference of $45,290 on an apple/apple basis.
On the EMB-145 it is 50 x 75 x 12 = 45,000. Difference is $57,890.
At Gojet they pay 65 x 74 x 12 = $57720 (120 a year more than Republic's best airplane, tell me the airlines are not getting together to decide what they are going to pay you!) That is a difference of $45,170. per year.
The market is telling you that you should make a minimum of $45170 a year more than what you are being paid. What is the union looking at getting you, a 10, may 20% increase? Why are you doing that? over 10 years that is $451,700.
You need to tell the companies that you are being offered $102,890 by the competition for a first year captain, nobody, absolutely nobody should be considering agreeing to a dollar less! That is the already the level, they need to beat that number.
Everyone needs to remember these two numbers, $102,890 for a first year captain and $110,090 for a 5 year captain. You need to make sure that everyone you fly with knows these 2 numbers. You need to take a tube of lipstick and write it on your mirror at home and leave it there, you need to write it on your hotel mirror and leave it there when you check out. You need to show the number to your wife and kids and even your mother-in-law because that is your minimum worth, that is what you deserve as a minimum, any dollar less and you are being robbed.
Tell your wife, kids, and mother-in-law what these numbers are. Tell them about how the pilot shortage has hit the US and how the airlines are having problems getting pilots. Then, I dare you, explain to them why you are considering voting for a contract that would pay less!
I want to see these numbers everywhere. I want every CEO to know these numbers. I want every chief pilot to know these numbers. In fact I want both the chief pilot's wife and girl friend to know these numbers! I want every pilot scheduler to know these numbers. I want the schedulers to understand why they can't get pilots to fly for $75 dollars per hour less then the competition in Japan pays to fly an hour of overtime.
$102,890 and $110,090 should be the first numbers you look at when a contract is being offered. If the numbers are not bigger than that then don't bother reading any more! Stop settling for a $36 hotel room 3 times a month and get what the market demands. KDA, Know what you are worth, Demand what you are worth, Accept nothing less!
102890 and 110,090!
#1438
Banned
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 0
Ideally, I think regional airlines should go completely union less. Here is my arguments why.
Essentially, what I'm trying to do here is get you to imagine what it would be like for the company to have to deal with the pilot group as individuals instead of as a collective group.
- The company doesn't abide by your contract anyway, save your money (for that matter any regional airline)
- There would be no organization to sue in the event that one or more pilots decided to be sick (unsanctioned work action). Who would remind the pilots to fall back in line? Nobody.
- It's an employees market right now, supply and demand leverage
- I hypothesize the union is nothing more than the enforcement arm of the company's wishes. Imagine the company having to deal with employees as individuals instead of collectively. The ensuing chaos would force the company to reconsider a variety of practices.
- Regional airline pilot unions have had decades to figure out proper wording of contracts yet they still pass contracts with vague wording open to interpretation after all these years, why?
Essentially, what I'm trying to do here is get you to imagine what it would be like for the company to have to deal with the pilot group as individuals instead of as a collective group.
#1440
Ideally, I think regional airlines should go completely union less. Here is my arguments why.
Essentially, what I'm trying to do here is get you to imagine what it would be like for the company to have to deal with the pilot group as individuals instead of as a collective group.
- The company doesn't abide by your contract anyway, save your money (for that matter any regional airline)
- There would be no organization to sue in the event that one or more pilots decided to be sick (unsanctioned work action). Who would remind the pilots to fall back in line? Nobody.
- It's an employees market right now, supply and demand leverage
- I hypothesize the union is nothing more than the enforcement arm of the company's wishes. Imagine the company having to deal with employees as individuals instead of collectively. The ensuing chaos would force the company to reconsider a variety of practices.
- Regional airline pilot unions have had decades to figure out proper wording of contracts yet they still pass contracts with vague wording open to interpretation after all these years, why?
Essentially, what I'm trying to do here is get you to imagine what it would be like for the company to have to deal with the pilot group as individuals instead of as a collective group.
In your example of the pilots who called in sick, they would all be fired. Over and done, with no union to fight for them and get them back to work with back pay.
All airlines need unions. The IBT sucks. ALPA sucks. I'm sure plenty of the in-house unions suck too. Guess what, the airline management groups suck more. The unions' suckiness is still significantly better than having no union at all. Despite their many flaws, unions are an absolute necessity in the airline world, especially when safety is a concern.
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