SpeedyVagabond

Amen. While scientists have yet to solve the chicken or the egg mystery, there is no debating we came before the controllers. They work for us. ATC denying a flight a runway because they're too "whatever" to land aircraft into the wind justifies some good old fashioned Captain's authority in my eyes.

enuff

I love the boneheads on here that second guess crews. The irony is they'll never get the chance to make a decision like the American heavy did because they will never reach that "level." Stay right there in your light twin. We are all better off.

EasternATC

And who do you suppose is pressuring the FAA? I hope the answer doesn't suprise anyone on here.

FlyboyPhil

Good decisions and nice sticking to their guns. "urine"-poor mealy mouthed communications. They could have made it much easier on themselves and the controllers by saying "min fuel, we need an immediate visual to 31R." Followed by the emergency declaration if the controller didn't play ball. Stating you need 31R doesn't mean you have to have it immediately.. they were taking him out for vectors into the 31R sequence because it was a secret that he was low on gas.
From my lazy-boy on Friday morning....

usmc-sgt

A little over the top based on the assumption that everyone who had an input not in line with your way of thinking flies a light twin.

Everyone here who has flown a multi crew aircraft has looked to their left at the CA or to the right at the FO and second guessed their decision. As much as I would like to believe it, not everyone in the seat next to me is Chuck Yeager or necessarily qualified to be there. We all know that to get into that position in aviation merely requires staying in one location long enough without getting fired or furloughed and its an inevitability.


I dont think the crew was in the wrong here, I think they could have handled things a bit different by saying they are min fuel and need IMMEDIATE vectors for priority to the appropriate runway. If that failed then the course of action they chose would be the next logical step. I wasnt there and I do not think they are in the wrong for how they handled things.

With that being said, there were about 6 hours of tape before what we heard so there could be a lot of missing pieces in there.

Sky Rascal

Shocking! I glad my airline doesn't put profit before safety! [/sarcasm]

Good job by the crew making it happen the way it should have in the first place.

It seems to be more common that ATC is putting crews into situations close to, at or even over the limitations of their aircraft. What else explains having aircraft land with 8 knot tailwinds on short runways?

Cycle Pilot

This whole sequence of events occurred with the local controller. Who's to say he didn't declare minimum fuel with center or approach? I'm willing to bet he already had. He probably had requested 31R, also.

georgetg

Kudos to the AA crew.

JFK is notorious for "keeping things moving" and they won't be in the room when you're doing the carpet-dance.

Sure max demonstrated x-wind is not a limitation, but if you run off the runway because of a blown tire, guess what the Feds will do...

Don't end up like the crew with the fuel leak emergency that was denied a straight in in DFW because it was "inconvenient" for ATC and they ended up flying a downwind and final on fumes...

Cheers
George

FlyerJosh

Then shame on the crew for not repeatedly declaring "min fuel" upon check-in and each subsequent communication (or declaring earlier) when things didn't go their way.

I don't know the entire circumstance of the situation, but as pilots we need to remember that the flow of communication goes both ways. Take whatever actions you deem necessary to protect the safety of your aircraft- that's what Captain's Authority is all about-

However also remember that as a captain you have a responsibility to do everything possible to prevent getting yourself into a situation where you need to exercise emergency authority. That starts WELL before the point where you have to take uncoordinated action/maneuvers in a busy traffic area.

I wonder if all of the people on this forum would be offering the same kudos to the crew if after breaking out of the approach (unannounced/coordinated with ATC) they had a mid air?

Regardless of ATC's limitations/capabilities/intent, we need to work TOGETHER.

One of the pilots reiterating that they were min fuel / emergency fuel when checking in could have solved a lot of issues. The crew being PROACTIVE could have as well. Simply thinking "Gee- the winds are gusty and right at the max crosswind limits... maybe we should take the conservative route and let ATC know we need 31R" well ahead of getting on with approach could have prevented this situation in the first place.

Better communication (by both parties) could have occurred here.

NoStep

In the lowly "Barbie-jet", max x-wind is a limitation in my manuals. (They don't pay enough to play test pilot.)

This particular controller can be a bit cantankerous, but he's damn good at pushing tin. (I've heard him be a bit abrasive with non-English speakers who don't follow instructions while waiting in the conga-line). Kinda' surprised he didn't ask the nature of emergency, souls on-board, assistance/roll the trucks? etc. Not trying to excoriate the controller, (he was obviously busy moving people out of AA#2's way)...just surprising.