This is a very scary thought process. It’s like a weed that needs to be plucked...

So, I guess if there’s a restaurant or dry cleaners or accounting firm or doctors office that caters to a “different” type of client, the workers should accept less pay despite the fact that the owners earn on par with what other owners who don’t cater to the same client? Is there a class of worker in EVERY industry that should be content with earning much less even through the owners and management don’t?

Where do people with this mentality come from? What is your background? Where did you grow up? What did your parents tell you when you were 12 - become an airline pilot but understand that if you get with a good airline but a ULCC owner buys it, you should settle for their below industry average pay?

Did canceling a few vacations do this to you?

So because we have 320-321s we should get paid Delta+ because our company makes more money? I don’t disagree that we should, everyone should, make the same amount of money. It’s a perfect world then. Though your example, I’ll use doctors because they are around the same pay as us, DO make less if they work with different clients. In fact a lot won’t accept Medicare/cade because they would make less. A lot try to go to private practice because they CAN discriminate on who they take because of the money they can make.
So if you want to start your own ULCC you can charge whatever you want!

Listen, they deal is below Spirit. That’s not good. But don’t kid yourself that F9 is the same airline as DL or even JB.

Legacy “B” scale........

This water rooster person is ex Skywest or still there. If you go back and read some posts you’ll quickly realize that this person is a rabblerouser and is just trying to get you riled up! Just know that it seems they are a military helicopter pilot, which just goes to show that they need to put someone down in order to make themselves feel better because they couldn’t get good enough grades in flight school to fly anything else, or they are Army which means they weren’t smart enough to get in the Navy/Marines, Air Force or Coast Gaurd. However, if you do vote this contract in, everything that was said about you will become fact. This is a bottom of the pile contract and if you accept that, you are bottom of the pile pilots. That is a fact!

That’s the fallacy of the argument - that we should expect Delta rates. Delta is a fine airline, but their customers aren’t different than Alaska. Yet Delta makes more. I get that not every company pays the same - but MOST if not ALL companies (doctor offices, accounting firms, etc) are much closer in pay to each other than us. We are still well below average. More than 4-5% less. That’s significant. Over the course of years, that greater difference equates to Tens of Thousands of dollars.

I’m not asking for Delalta rates. I don’t think anyone is. But we should’ve started negotiations at those rates so that we meet in the middle (somewhere around industry average).

How do we not know how NEGOTIATIONS work in 2018? We are still well below industry average much less Delta...

Like I said, I agree with most of what is said about the contract. It’s below where it should be and that’s not good. You and I are close on an understanding but just like most things we can disagree and that’s ok. I just think we need to compare to Spirit because they are our only airline in the class of business that we do.

Also dude up there called me a rabblerouser! That’s the best compliment that a not smart enough guy, that’s why I went in the Army right, guy could get!

Yes. Yes it is.

I love when the weak Frontier pilots make weak Frontier pilot arguments. Arguments that reference Delta or Delta + whatever.... NO ONE has EVER said that. I personally just wanted to be brought into the pattern and move forward.

This contract fails to do that, and now we get to listen to our union lie to our faces about it.

I refuse to be put into a class. Especially when you realize that the “class” debate happened a while ago with the SW LCC argument. They are no longer LCC because that fleeting strategy was overcome by events. Those events were LABOR PAY. SW charges what they charge in order to compete for labor in a market where other airlines (like Delta et al) pay so much more. The SW pilot group killed the LCC class via negotiations.

The ULCC “class” is a class only because we allow it. That’s what this pilot group must realize. As I’ve always mentioned, it might be better to possibly perish (airline shut down due to lack of available pilot labor) then to exist at a lower level. That is the fundamental difference among this pilot group.

Some people here, seems like you’re one of them, don’t mind existence with this TA pay. I do. I want a job but not at the cost of being in the lesser “class.” So I’m willing to fight for it - and no calculator depicting how I’m losing a couple of dollars more in the delay will scare me into accepting B scale wages.

We either need higher wages, better scheduling options, profit sharing or a shorter contract duration.

The ULCC class exists because there is consumer demand for it. it has nothing to do with the pilots, but the customer. If F9 shuts down another one would pop up because the consumer wants a $45 ticket. Its a class that is not going to go away.

I have not said the pay is acceptable once actually. I have agreed with you that they contract is substandard. Where we don't agree is what numbers we should be looking at. For me it is a minimum of the NK contract. All of it.

Like I said, we aren't far off from the same view point here.