Ethiopian 737 MAX 8 crash - Page 38 - Airline Pilot Central Forums

#371

rickair7777 , 03-21-2019 04:33 PM

Prime Minister/Moderator

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun

The 737 does not have that kind of feature. MCAS trims 2.5 units ND quickly. The rapidly spinning trim wheels and back pressure building in the yoke should be a small clue it’s a trim issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flydrive

Even if the trim motion was in the wrong direction?

I suspect that I would have caught it. I'm certain you guys would have, since you're so sure. But I can understand how not everyone would.

I think it was telling that a jumpseater who was sitting back trying to figure it out without having to wrestle the plane at the same time was the only guy who could figure it out.

Course prayer probably doesn't help much at that point either.

#372

GuardPolice , 03-21-2019 06:06 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun

The 737 does not have that kind of feature. MCAS trims 2.5 units ND quickly. The rapidly spinning trim wheels and back pressure building in the yoke should be a small clue it’s a trim issue.

The 737NGs have a speed trim system that under very particular circumstances does provide automatic trimming while hand flying.

Also, “very quickly” with regards to the MCAS motion depends if you think 10 seconds is quick. It was designed to move around 0.27 units per second up to 2.5 degrees.

#373

nfnsquared , 03-21-2019 07:25 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rickair7777

It is a memory item in all of the conventional types I've flown.

But runaway trim was ALWAYS defined to be continuous elevator trim motion. There was never any consideration of a runaway that would stop and then start up again. It wasn't realistically likely until MCAS, and of course nobody even knew about MCAS initially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickair7777

I've flown a couple types where the trim could move automatically when hand-flying, typically to make hand-flying easier. Trim motion in and of itself was not abnormal (unless it doesn't stop).

How many aircraft have you flown where the trim ran uncommanded for 10 full seconds?

And then continued again for another 10 seconds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by flydrive

I can't fathom how any experienced, competent pilot would see any undesired trim movement, especially with the A/P off, and not immediately think "runaway trim," continuous or not.

Agreed, especially for 10 seconds, much less multiple 10-second runs...

#374

atpcliff , 03-21-2019 07:52 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMahon

Sooo.... they're SUPER picky about who they allow to sit in the right seat... but don't care that they are hiring people with only 200 hours of experience?

They are hiring people with ZERO hours. 200 hours are what they have when they finish training. Just like the US military...

#375

atpcliff , 03-21-2019 07:55 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bugeatr

Just read that according to the cockpit recorder that one pilot was going through the QRH and the other was praying, why in the world was runaway trim not a memory item. Just asking, I'm only a private pilot so put away the knives.

My airline is moving towards the Boeing style of training. We now do not have ANY memory checklist items. Everything is done by following the checklist...

#376

Adlerdriver , 03-21-2019 08:16 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by atpcliff

They are hiring people with ZERO hours. 200 hours are what they have when they finish training. Just like the US military...

Equating a military pilot training program with some ab-initio program to create auto-pilot cripples is hardly a valid comparison. Military training doesn't end with 200 hours and a set of wings. Pilots then continue on with specific a/c training programs before they are considered fully trained. They also wash out weaklings as opposed to giving multiple "do-overs" as long as someone is willing to keep paying the training bills.

#377

JamesNoBrakes , 03-21-2019 08:51 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Adlerdriver

So you are saying you have knowledge of these foreign ab-intro programs?

#378

Adlerdriver , 03-22-2019 03:21 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

So you are saying you have knowledge of these foreign ab-intro programs?

Yes, I do. Not impressed.

#379

pangolin , 03-22-2019 05:25 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer

In the US, no C172 with five checkride busts is getting an airline seat, so that’s a silly argument.

I agree either the US training program or the outside ab initio system can produce safe air carrier pilots. But, someone who has spent loads of classroom time, some instructor-based sim and aircraft time to reach a “200 hour” MPL status has zero experience in the real world rough and tumble operational world. Very little! It’s all “paint by numbers” follow the script ability. Throw a spatial disorienting situation, multiple failures or an ATC curveball like a “slam dunk visual” and the brain circuit breakers start tripping. I’ve seen in the AF flying heavies, recent graduates have loads of answers, some great basic skills, but tell them 20 miles from the field to land visually and it gets interesting to watch. Safety has become very much a product of system reliability, operating within very tight controls.

GF

A strong GA or military background yields a more well rounded pilot. Pilots that have been there done that. Pilots that have spend hour and hours hand flying their aircraft. Pilots that will make the counter intuitive control movements and who will disconnect the automation and fly the plane. A 1000 hour Ab initio pilot might have 75 hours actually flying the airplane. Yes the systems make the plane generally safe. It’s when something goes wrong that you need someone who’s narrowing focus (natural consequence) stays in the appropriate area of retaining/regaining control and who has practiced being situationally aware under stress.

My 3500 hours of GA experience before becoming an airline pilot was valuable time.

#380

pangolin , 03-22-2019 05:27 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by atpcliff

My airline is moving towards the Boeing style of training. We now do not have ANY memory checklist items. Everything is done by following the checklist...

No memory items? There are certain emergencies that require immediate action. A take off abort has memory items. You are telling me you’ll pull a checklist for that?