Contracts - Collective Bargaining Agreements
10-16-2017 | 10:21 AM
#61
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
If there are ANY airlines where you can refuse to do something based on your interpretation of the contract and get off the hook I would like to know. I'm talking about a contractual provision allowing you to refuse any assignment which is not in accordance with the contract.
But even having such a provision might be of limited value... you'd have to be pretty darn sure of your contractual knowledge to play that card if the consequence of being wrong is termination.
10-16-2017 | 10:31 AM
#62
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Also typical at union airlines. Being right about the contract will not keep them from firing you for disobedience/insubordination if you refuse when they tell you to do something. "Fly it and grieve it".
If there are ANY airlines where you can refuse to do something based on your interpretation of the contract and get off the hook I would like to know. I'm talking about a contractual provision allowing you to refuse any assignment which is not in accordance with the contract.
But even having such a provision might be of limited value... you'd have to be pretty darn sure of your contractual knowledge to play that card if the consequence of being wrong is termination.
If there are ANY airlines where you can refuse to do something based on your interpretation of the contract and get off the hook I would like to know. I'm talking about a contractual provision allowing you to refuse any assignment which is not in accordance with the contract.
But even having such a provision might be of limited value... you'd have to be pretty darn sure of your contractual knowledge to play that card if the consequence of being wrong is termination.
Are you telling me that you honestly believe that SAPA has the same degree of protection for you in contract (policy) grievances as ALPA does?
10-16-2017 | 11:11 AM
#63
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Also typical at union airlines. Being right about the contract will not keep them from firing you for disobedience/insubordination if you refuse when they tell you to do something. "Fly it and grieve it".
If there are ANY airlines where you can refuse to do something based on your interpretation of the contract and get off the hook I would like to know. I'm talking about a contractual provision allowing you to refuse any assignment which is not in accordance with the contract.
But even having such a provision might be of limited value... you'd have to be pretty darn sure of your contractual knowledge to play that card if the consequence of being wrong is termination.
If there are ANY airlines where you can refuse to do something based on your interpretation of the contract and get off the hook I would like to know. I'm talking about a contractual provision allowing you to refuse any assignment which is not in accordance with the contract.
But even having such a provision might be of limited value... you'd have to be pretty darn sure of your contractual knowledge to play that card if the consequence of being wrong is termination.
10-16-2017 | 12:06 PM
#65
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A company policy manual however, if violated can give grounds for legal action. If someone is terminated or disciplined, (depending on severity) that company policy manual absolutely can be used as a defense. Company policy manuals are a two way street, protecting management and employees.
Would be interesting to see how familiar your pilot group is to actual company policies, instead of relying on SAPA as their source of information.
Would be interesting to see how familiar your pilot group is to actual company policies, instead of relying on SAPA as their source of information.
However at ALPA they have the means to do that when there is a big issue. And you do have legal protection in the case of wrongful termination and other situations where you may need it.
As far as knowing the policy manual, when something arises we can refer to our policy manual which every employee has access to. But like I said, when crew support tells you one thing, and yet the policy manual clearly states the opposite, you are still forced to bend over.
10-16-2017 | 03:12 PM
#66
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From: 737 FO
1% in today's market proved we have no leverage without a union. Even worse is the company's constant disregard for the policy and no protections when they decide to reinterpret the rules to fit their needs each day.
I've never been big on needing/wanting a union myself but times are changing.
I've never been big on needing/wanting a union myself but times are changing.
10-16-2017 | 03:16 PM
#67
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From: 737 FO
Yes there are. SAPA regularly has updates on instances of the company pulling a new stunt and the details of the uphill battle of them trying to fix it. Sometimes they are successful sometimes they are not..even with things that are in clear violation of the policy.
Some are so obvious you would think I am joking. A recent one was forcing pilots to work on their day off. After several months of discussion and meetings with the company it was decided that a day off is....a day off. Imagine that.
That shouldn't have taken so long. The problem is in an instance where crew support forces you to work on a day off you, you call to SAPA and the response would be to fly the flight and submit a complaint about it. Meanwhile you've already missed your child's birthday party or you had to call in emergency (for a day that was already a day off).
It's sad that SAPA doesn't have enough power to even say "No, that's a breach of policy. You don't have to work that day because it's your day off. We will take care of you"
Wait for the best part.. even though it has been agreed that days off are protected, we haven't seen the last of this problem yet. I'm sure it will come up again in a few months or a year and they will have more meetings to redetermine how they want to interpret the rules.
So I guess my point is that I agree with you completely that the fact that the company doesn't want a union should be enough to keep them playing ball and when that happens everyone wins. But what is the next course of action when the company decides not to play nicely anymore? What if the employees have decided that the current system isn't working anymore?
Some are so obvious you would think I am joking. A recent one was forcing pilots to work on their day off. After several months of discussion and meetings with the company it was decided that a day off is....a day off. Imagine that.
That shouldn't have taken so long. The problem is in an instance where crew support forces you to work on a day off you, you call to SAPA and the response would be to fly the flight and submit a complaint about it. Meanwhile you've already missed your child's birthday party or you had to call in emergency (for a day that was already a day off).
It's sad that SAPA doesn't have enough power to even say "No, that's a breach of policy. You don't have to work that day because it's your day off. We will take care of you"
Wait for the best part.. even though it has been agreed that days off are protected, we haven't seen the last of this problem yet. I'm sure it will come up again in a few months or a year and they will have more meetings to redetermine how they want to interpret the rules.
So I guess my point is that I agree with you completely that the fact that the company doesn't want a union should be enough to keep them playing ball and when that happens everyone wins. But what is the next course of action when the company decides not to play nicely anymore? What if the employees have decided that the current system isn't working anymore?
10-16-2017 | 03:21 PM
#68
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From: 737 FO
A great example would be the recent change to policy regarding call out for and IOE trip. Until last week the required minimum notification was 24 hours. Company just arbitrarily cut it in half with no say from SAPA or the pilot group.
10-16-2017 | 06:01 PM
#69
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Look at the pay packages the other regionals are offering, then look at our latest.
10-16-2017 | 06:01 PM
#70
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From: fatigued
[/QUOTE]Exactly, they'd never expect that: Mutiny from within the highest echelons of the Mormon faith. Managers would be looking over their shoulders all day; no one would know who the traitor was and it would drive them paranoid.
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