Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

LTD is available, but if you go out on medical and you run out of sick leave, after a certain period, the Company drops you from your insurance plan, and you have to go on COBRA. SWAPA will reimburse you for COBRA coverage. If you're still out after COBRA runs out, you go on Secondary/VEBA Plan and all of that is a major PITA. But here's another gem... when the Company drops you from insurance, they also drop you from other insurance packages - your life insurance for example. They also drop you and your family from having any travel benefits. In other words, you're done... they no longer have any use for you. Now, considering that pilots are sort of a special category and we're subject to FAA medical certification that other employees here aren't, we now have to pass "the desk test" in order to retain travel benefits... and though it's an improvement because prior to this, you would have to go to your chief pilot and ask them for a pass, it's still grossly subpar to our legacy peers.

If you're unfortunate to go out on long-term medical, you should retain all your benefits just as if you're an active employee. That means not dealing with this COBRA nonsense, that also means your online travel benefits for you and your family, that means peace of mind of your life insurance being left intact. When you're out on medical, the last thing you should worry about is if your medical coverage will remain adequate, if you trusted (and you never should!) the Company with your life insurance, and your medical insurance. You shouldn't chase or beg chiefs for travel benefits for you and your family especially if you have to travel to get treatments elsewhere.

This is where our legacy peers blow us away and this is what needs to be addressed.

When TA2 was announced, our pay rates were indeed the industry-leading narrowbody rates. However, before we concluded our vote, Delta pilots also got their TA with their rates being higher than ours. United pilot contract had a parity clause in which they would match Delta should they get a TA within a specified timeframe which they did. Right there, we got bypassed on our rates before we even finished voting. In light of that, there was a discussion to throw in sweeteners for us to pass our TA2, and addressing our LTD inadequacy was on the table. However, the company negotiator R.M. managed to convince the company that this pilot group would pass the TA2 without this "sweetener" and we proved him right... and that's why I'm proud of my NO vote.

When you start your newhire training, you'll hear all about "The Golden Rule" and how the Company is all over it. Don't forget that it should come with a big fat * next to it if you're the unfortunate soul that goes out on medical long-term as you have all of the above to deal with in addition to dealing with your illness or injury.

Originally Posted by SlipKid

SWAPA was on an amazing roll in 2015, and then just gave up after seeing the results of the membership survey that included questions about a potential strike vote.

Without understanding what they were actually gonna vote on (which is typical around here), the membership ran scared when the "S" word was mentioned. SWAPA did the right thing and settled right then and there, since a weak strike vote would've made things far worse.

I can tell you what doesn't work, and that's coming on public forums, incessantly crowing about how our work rules allow us to make as much and more than our legacy brethren if we're willing to work a "little" extra. It undermines the effort to get an industry standard hourly rate.

Ironically, some of the ones screaming it the loudest aren't working a little extra, they're working a LOT extra. Like a week or more per month in some cases.

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

Slip, you keep forgetting that we did have industry-leading rates incorporated in TA2. We got bypassed as Delta got their TA while we were voting on ours. Pattern bargaining works.

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

Slip, it’s good that you keep bringing up SWApA and caution against electing self serving bozos giving away the store and selling it as a “gain”, but you cannot let that handicap you. You also can’t say stuff like we are lagging our peers without taking a look at the whole enchilada. Your main beef is no heavies and associated flying. It’s interesting listening to my legacy buds and their gripes... funny. I think we have it better especially living in base. But then again, different strokes for different folks...

I remain optimistic going forward for two reasons:

1) Available Pilot market - how will Southwest attract future talent? We don’t have fast upgrades or widebodies... why should someone come here vs. go to United or American? Deck parties?

2) Airline industry health - way better than it was over the last almost 2 decades.

Supply and demand curve should be on our side.

Originally Posted by Lewbronski

What is it about these two things that makes you optimistic? Are you saying you expect to be able to use these two items in 2020 to be able to get better LTD?

If so, how do you foresee that happening?

If not, how do you expect to be able to improve our LTD situation?

What should this pilot group do to improve the LTD that you have pretty much painted as a moral imperative to improve?

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

To fix the LTD situation here would literally cost peanuts in the grand scheme. This last go, our focus was on improving pay, reserve, and retirement. We largely succeeded on this front. Some don't think it went far enough, and that's a healthy attitude to have as we should always strive for improvements. LTD was brought up pretty late in the game... if I remember right, it came up as a potential sweetener after Delta got their TA and we were voting on ours.

This is pretty easy to overlook as nobody thinks they'll go out on a medical. But should it happen, shouldn't your full concentration be on getting well? Should you have to worry about losing your various coverages and your travel benefits for you and family because the company just drops you? Shouldn't the company practice what it preaches with regards to the Golden Rule?

My reps know where I stand on this. There's enough buzz on our internal boards about this issue as well. I think when it comes to any negotiations for any side letter or to renegotiate our contract, I'm pretty sure this will get addressed. If it doesn't... I'm an automatic no to any side letter or TA.

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan

It depends on how much people want to focus on “industry leading pay”. I don’t personally need to be the highest paid, provided the work rules, quality of life, Ltd, etc are industry standard or better.

I’d like to see them clean up all of the slop in the contract before going back to the trough for more dollars.


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Originally Posted by Lewbronski

Okay, so your particular personal issue is all of the "slop" in the contract. RJS's particular personal issue is LTD. Same question: what is going to compel the company in 2020 to clean up all of the "slop" in the contract to your satisfaction?

Will it be the "available pilot market"?

Will it be the "airline industry health"?

Will it be something else?

What is going to cause the company to grant concessions on any particular issue regardless of whether or not whatever concession they grant represents "industry standard" or not?

Originally Posted by flyguy81

Looking at retirements per year across the industry in 2020 and beyond....it would behoove the company to not prolong negotiations to avoid a spike in attrition and their ability to recruit. Delta, United and maybe AA will all have been negotiating for a year or more by the time 2020 hits and I’m hoping pattern bargaining will work in our favor this time vs how worked in 2016.