SWA Hourly rate conversion
04-21-2018, 09:01 AM
#51
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 64
Show me what wasn’t factual... is it perhaps that I don’t whine incessantly about our “hourly rates” being “lower” than our legacy counterparts’? I’ve merely pointed out that the work rules matter probably way more so than the rates, otherwise, we’ll have crowds leaving for Omni...
04-21-2018, 09:06 AM
#52
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 64
That means that folks have to stop embellishing their pay vs. days worked numbers etc.(:cough: T1 :cough
. Whether you actually flew or not, reserve is a day of work.
This stuff plays right into GK's hands, just like it always has. Guys like Myron have been using this argument for as long as I've been here.
. Whether you actually flew or not, reserve is a day of work. This stuff plays right into GK's hands, just like it always has. Guys like Myron have been using this argument for as long as I've been here.
04-21-2018, 09:19 AM
#54
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,695
SWA Hourly rate conversion
I agree about the LTD, but that was not even close to the only reason for rejecting it.
Agreed.
Membership polling showed that "we" were not willing to do what it took to get any closer to platform, which is why Jon "endorsed" it. He knew that a strike vote with this pilot group would've been the kiss of death.
LOL.... It took over a decade for GK to (almost) get the union he deserved. Now, we just need the membership he deserves!
That means that folks have to stop embellishing their pay vs. days worked numbers etc.(:cough: T1 :cough. Whether you actually flew or not, reserve is a day of work.
This stuff plays right into GK's hands, just like it always has. Guys like Myron have been using this argument for as long as I've been here.
Agreed.
Membership polling showed that "we" were not willing to do what it took to get any closer to platform, which is why Jon "endorsed" it. He knew that a strike vote with this pilot group would've been the kiss of death.
LOL.... It took over a decade for GK to (almost) get the union he deserved. Now, we just need the membership he deserves!
That means that folks have to stop embellishing their pay vs. days worked numbers etc.(:cough: T1 :cough
. Whether you actually flew or not, reserve is a day of work. This stuff plays right into GK's hands, just like it always has. Guys like Myron have been using this argument for as long as I've been here.
Slip, so what do you use as a gauge? Is it “hourly” rate? Is it W-2? Is it a ratio of days worked/days home vs. pay? Is it nights in own bed vs. pay? What constitutes “industry-leading” in your mind? Omni pays $115/hour or so to first year FO’s. They blow away all of us by a healthy margin..... or do they?
What works for you as a commuter won’t necessarily work for those living in base... legacy pilots can’t trade their lineholder trips with a reserve holder. That may not be worth anything to you. It’s worth a lot to those of us living in base, and it’s also worth a good bit to junior commuters who are on reserve due to their seniority.
Timing was everything. We did have industry-leading rates at the time TA2 was announced. We got passed. Let’s see what happens in 2020.... or 2025.
04-21-2018, 09:36 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,219
Slip, so what do you use as a gauge? Is it “hourly” rate? Is it W-2? Is it a ratio of days worked/days home vs. pay? Is it nights in own bed vs. pay? What constitutes “industry-leading” in your mind? Omni pays $115/hour or so to first year FO’s. They blow away all of us by a healthy margin..... or do they?
What works for you as a commuter won’t necessarily work for those living in base... legacy pilots can’t trade their lineholder trips with a reserve holder. That may not be worth anything to you. It’s worth a lot to those of us living in base, and it’s also worth a good bit to junior commuters who are on reserve due to their seniority.
Timing was everything. We did have industry-leading rates at the time TA2 was announced. We got passed. Let’s see what happens in 2020.... or 2025.
What works for you as a commuter won’t necessarily work for those living in base... legacy pilots can’t trade their lineholder trips with a reserve holder. That may not be worth anything to you. It’s worth a lot to those of us living in base, and it’s also worth a good bit to junior commuters who are on reserve due to their seniority.
Timing was everything. We did have industry-leading rates at the time TA2 was announced. We got passed. Let’s see what happens in 2020.... or 2025.
04-21-2018, 09:39 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,016
I used to use pay per day, but as of today, I use 12+ tfp per day of reserve as a gauge. 
I use pay per commute and endeavor to commute as little as possible. Too bad I can't average 12tfp per day as a commuter.
Apparently. Base dwelling reserve folks average 12+ tfp per day!
In the summer, I can only average around 10 per day flying. The rest of the year, I average about 8-8.5 per day. I guess I am a slacker.
You mean legacy guys can't trade their trips for reserve that pay the equivalent of 12+ tfp on average, like our domicile dwellers can?
Apparently, it's not worth as much if you commute.
Agreed. We had industry leading rates because the rest of the industry's rates plummeted post 9/11. Even after JW got us a 35% pay raise in '02, we were still behind the average until the rest took their hits.
In 2015, we had the perfect environment and opportunity to kill it. As usual, we settled for less than we could've easily achieved. Granted, it wasn't as much less as we usually settle for, but it's still less. 38% of us voted for TA 1. Nothing new around here. I would love to be wrong, but 2020-26 will be more of the same. Mark my words.
Is it “hourly” rate? Is it W-2? Is it a ratio of days worked/days home vs. pay? Is it nights in own bed vs. pay? What constitutes “industry-leading” in your mind? Omni pays $115/hour or so to first year FO’s. They blow away all of us by a healthy margin..... or do they?
What works for you as a commuter won’t necessarily work for those living in base...
In the summer, I can only average around 10 per day flying. The rest of the year, I average about 8-8.5 per day. I guess I am a slacker.
legacy pilots can’t trade their lineholder trips with a reserve holder.
That may not be worth anything to you. It’s worth a lot to those of us living in base, and it’s also worth a good bit to junior commuters who are on reserve due to their seniority.
Timing was everything. We did have industry-leading rates at the time TA2 was announced. We got passed. Let’s see what happens in 2020.... or 2025.
In 2015, we had the perfect environment and opportunity to kill it. As usual, we settled for less than we could've easily achieved. Granted, it wasn't as much less as we usually settle for, but it's still less. 38% of us voted for TA 1. Nothing new around here. I would love to be wrong, but 2020-26 will be more of the same. Mark my words.
04-21-2018, 10:15 AM
#57
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,695
SWA Hourly rate conversion
Here’s how I gauge it Slip... right or wrong, but for me it’s like this:
As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didn’t come close despite their hourly rates. What’s worse, they didn’t even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldn’t achieve it simply due to their structure.
Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?
As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of “hourly rates” is a bit disingenuous.
As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didn’t come close despite their hourly rates. What’s worse, they didn’t even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldn’t achieve it simply due to their structure.
Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?
As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of “hourly rates” is a bit disingenuous.
04-21-2018, 10:28 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,016
Here’s how I gauge it Slip... right or wrong, but for me it’s like this:
As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didn’t come close despite their hourly rates. What’s worse, they didn’t even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldn’t achieve it simply due to their structure.
Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?
As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of “hourly rates” is a bit disingenuous.
As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didn’t come close despite their hourly rates. What’s worse, they didn’t even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldn’t achieve it simply due to their structure.
Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?
As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of “hourly rates” is a bit disingenuous.
Keep convincing yourself and others that we don't need, or even want a higher pay rate.
That strategy has been working great (for management) for at least 2 decades!
Last edited by SlipKid; 04-21-2018 at 10:41 AM.
04-21-2018, 10:36 AM
#59
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 64
Here’s how I gauge it Slip... right or wrong, but for me it’s like this:
As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didn’t come close despite their hourly rates. What’s worse, they didn’t even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldn’t achieve it simply due to their structure.
Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?
As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of “hourly rates” is a bit disingenuous.
As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didn’t come close despite their hourly rates. What’s worse, they didn’t even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldn’t achieve it simply due to their structure.
Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?
As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of “hourly rates” is a bit disingenuous.
I voted yes to ta2 because it was the absolute minimum I would take. Going back I think we screwed up on first year pay. Swa was loosing pilots to oal’s at a pretty good clip, mostly due to pay. Ta2 increased first year pay rates higher than every other year. We should have held managements feet to the fire and had that increase to all year groups. Swa got a win by fixing first year pay and ignoring the pay disparity 2-5. We had leverage, we just didn’t use it.
04-21-2018, 11:37 AM
#60
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,695
It’s funny you keep saying that and keep missing my point. My point isn’t that we “don’t need higher pay rate.” My point is pretty simple really... #workrulesmatter or something like that.
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