Contract Negotiations room
03-25-2017 | 07:41 AM
#531
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Count me in as one who thinks it's not enough.
And the reason I say this is because this is the high end. This is as good as it's going to get.
The realistic expectation is they will be forced off of this position. It's won't be 3 years, it will be 5 which really mean 8 years. It won't be the DC or profit sharing proposed-it will be less.
And if we got this ask in its entirety it would be the minimum to stay competitive and I think we won't see this.
While I agree the NC should ask for what is reasonable and be cognizant of forces beyond its control I would have liked to see another 3-5% higher ask all around. While still being reasonable it would give us room to pull back a bit and allow the company room to save face with the BOD. No way any management goes to the BOD and says they have us what we asked for.
As it stands, this ask is the best we could hope for and in my opinion it is the bare minimum to be considered. This is what we have earned and deserve. There is nothing I see here that's worth writing home about.
And the reason I say this is because this is the high end. This is as good as it's going to get.
The realistic expectation is they will be forced off of this position. It's won't be 3 years, it will be 5 which really mean 8 years. It won't be the DC or profit sharing proposed-it will be less.
And if we got this ask in its entirety it would be the minimum to stay competitive and I think we won't see this.
While I agree the NC should ask for what is reasonable and be cognizant of forces beyond its control I would have liked to see another 3-5% higher ask all around. While still being reasonable it would give us room to pull back a bit and allow the company room to save face with the BOD. No way any management goes to the BOD and says they have us what we asked for.
As it stands, this ask is the best we could hope for and in my opinion it is the bare minimum to be considered. This is what we have earned and deserve. There is nothing I see here that's worth writing home about.
And here's a news flash for you. No one cares what you think anymore. No one. So maybe just keep you opinions to yourself
I guess the NC should ask for a 1 year contract so it turns into 3. Great idea dimwit
03-25-2017 | 07:49 AM
#532
Boost is Life
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: In the Garage
I disagree with you, 100%
The NCs platform this entire time, from the start, has been "industry standard" amongst our peers. That is simple math that can be presented to a mediator, and explained why these numbers increase as our peers secure new agreements.
If they were to present an ask that exceeds the industry average math, you cant tell a mediator "Well, we put in an extra 5% because we know its going to be watered down." They are doing the smart thing with industry average, the math to back it up, and the position that their offer is in the "zone of reasonableness" so they dont need to back off of it. That is a much stronger position than "we are asking for more, to settle for less, but hey, we are playing the game"
And the fact you can say the offer is "nothing to write home about" is ridiculous. Industry average, as this would provide, would change the lives for every single pilot on our list; debts paid off, college funds for kids, families able to save, retirement security for those pilots who are under the gun, and new boats for the FLL guys. That, Gunga Dim IS something to write home about.
The NCs platform this entire time, from the start, has been "industry standard" amongst our peers. That is simple math that can be presented to a mediator, and explained why these numbers increase as our peers secure new agreements.
If they were to present an ask that exceeds the industry average math, you cant tell a mediator "Well, we put in an extra 5% because we know its going to be watered down." They are doing the smart thing with industry average, the math to back it up, and the position that their offer is in the "zone of reasonableness" so they dont need to back off of it. That is a much stronger position than "we are asking for more, to settle for less, but hey, we are playing the game"
And the fact you can say the offer is "nothing to write home about" is ridiculous. Industry average, as this would provide, would change the lives for every single pilot on our list; debts paid off, college funds for kids, families able to save, retirement security for those pilots who are under the gun, and new boats for the FLL guys. That, Gunga Dim IS something to write home about.
03-25-2017 | 08:34 AM
#533
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
From: A320HD
I can see where gunga din is coming from as the laymen's understanding of negotiations is start high, counter low and meet in the middle. From what I see the work rules/hos remain current book-maybe that's where the majority of the back and forth will go; i.e.-change this rule pay goes up xx.
03-25-2017 | 08:41 AM
#534
Banned
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
From: A320 Captain
As an official union rep you did not even know the ask??? It was only 2% retro, remember, it was an ALPA email blast. My god, glad you are not repping anymore. Hence the petition.
03-25-2017 | 01:10 PM
#535
Banned
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,857
Likes: 0
03-25-2017 | 01:32 PM
#536
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Pilot
Agreed
Count me in as one who thinks it's not enough.
And the reason I say this is because this is the high end. This is as good as it's going to get.
The realistic expectation is they will be forced off of this position. It's won't be 3 years, it will be 5 which really mean 8 years. It won't be the DC or profit sharing proposed-it will be less.
And if we got this ask in its entirety it would be the minimum to stay competitive and I think we won't see this.
While I agree the NC should ask for what is reasonable and be cognizant of forces beyond its control I would have liked to see another 3-5% higher ask all around. While still being reasonable it would give us room to pull back a bit and allow the company room to save face with the BOD. No way any management goes to the BOD and says they have us what we asked for.
As it stands, this ask is the best we could hope for and in my opinion it is the bare minimum to be considered. This is what we have earned and deserve. There is nothing I see here that's worth writing home about.
And the reason I say this is because this is the high end. This is as good as it's going to get.
The realistic expectation is they will be forced off of this position. It's won't be 3 years, it will be 5 which really mean 8 years. It won't be the DC or profit sharing proposed-it will be less.
And if we got this ask in its entirety it would be the minimum to stay competitive and I think we won't see this.
While I agree the NC should ask for what is reasonable and be cognizant of forces beyond its control I would have liked to see another 3-5% higher ask all around. While still being reasonable it would give us room to pull back a bit and allow the company room to save face with the BOD. No way any management goes to the BOD and says they have us what we asked for.
As it stands, this ask is the best we could hope for and in my opinion it is the bare minimum to be considered. This is what we have earned and deserve. There is nothing I see here that's worth writing home about.
03-25-2017 | 01:33 PM
#537
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
From: A320 Right
I disagree with you, 100%
The NCs platform this entire time, from the start, has been "industry standard" amongst our peers. That is simple math that can be presented to a mediator, and explained why these numbers increase as our peers secure new agreements.
If they were to present an ask that exceeds the industry average math, you cant tell a mediator "Well, we put in an extra 5% because we know its going to be watered down." They are doing the smart thing with industry average, the math to back it up, and the position that their offer is in the "zone of reasonableness" so they dont need to back off of it. That is a much stronger position than "we are asking for more, to settle for less, but hey, we are playing the game"
And the fact you can say the offer is "nothing to write home about" is ridiculous. Industry average, as this would provide, would change the lives for every single pilot on our list; debts paid off, college funds for kids, families able to save, retirement security for those pilots who are under the gun, and new boats for the FLL guys. That, Gunga Dim IS something to write home about.
The NCs platform this entire time, from the start, has been "industry standard" amongst our peers. That is simple math that can be presented to a mediator, and explained why these numbers increase as our peers secure new agreements.
If they were to present an ask that exceeds the industry average math, you cant tell a mediator "Well, we put in an extra 5% because we know its going to be watered down." They are doing the smart thing with industry average, the math to back it up, and the position that their offer is in the "zone of reasonableness" so they dont need to back off of it. That is a much stronger position than "we are asking for more, to settle for less, but hey, we are playing the game"
And the fact you can say the offer is "nothing to write home about" is ridiculous. Industry average, as this would provide, would change the lives for every single pilot on our list; debts paid off, college funds for kids, families able to save, retirement security for those pilots who are under the gun, and new boats for the FLL guys. That, Gunga Dim IS something to write home about.
For all you out there who have always thought you were never good enough or you never imagined when you were flying an RJ or Lear that you deserve more then I ask you to please not influence the NC and lead them to believe substandard is ok.
Because when you can't see this is THE BEST you are going to get.... and we are NOT going to get this in its entirety.... then what you're saying is "I will agree to substandard compensation again"
I appreciate a good pay raise is desperately needed.
What I'm saying is you guys are high if you think aiming for the fence is going to hit the moon.
I guess it's too late anyway, the ask was submitted. But if we back off this we will be back to the bottom again.
03-25-2017 | 02:03 PM
#538
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
From: A320 Right
Ugh.. DIM, I'm So tired of you. Nothing is ever good enough. Nothing meets your standard and nothing ever will. You will always find a way to complain. I pray to never have to share the flight deck with you.
And here's a news flash for you. No one cares what you think anymore. No one. So maybe just keep you opinions to yourself
I guess the NC should ask for a 1 year contract so it turns into 3. Great idea dimwit
And here's a news flash for you. No one cares what you think anymore. No one. So maybe just keep you opinions to yourself
I guess the NC should ask for a 1 year contract so it turns into 3. Great idea dimwit
I couldn't help but notice you didn't actually disagree with my points.
Let's agree since we are asking for exactly the bare minimum we both will vote no if the TA in 2020 comes back with anything less than the current ask.
03-25-2017 | 02:07 PM
#539
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
From: Switch, Lever & Light Specialist
I'll agree that I disagree with your points. The NC is right on target here. You, on the other hand, are not...again.
03-25-2017 | 03:12 PM
#540
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Why are we asking for less than Delta/United right off the bat? If a TA is reached with those numbers, great, but it doesn't seem like there's much room to negotiate.
I also hope our pilot group is serious about holding out for full retro pay; the company can absolutely afford it and it's a slap in the face to come to any other conclusion.
I also hope our pilot group is serious about holding out for full retro pay; the company can absolutely afford it and it's a slap in the face to come to any other conclusion.
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