Hey guys... don't we remember just 5-6 months ago Lincoln Osiris and Co were all designated as Company Trolls here to pit us against each other and lower our expectations? Union Buster

Now that he has close to 200 posts he's suddenly the voice of reason?

I just read through most of this thread tonight and despite the name calling early on, it mostly justifies why I read an Airline Forum on my time off. Because I want to hear *everyones'* opinion. I want to hear what everyone has to say, put it all in my own head and let it rattle around.

Remember, WE DON'T KNOW MUCH OF ANYTHING YET. There are still a ton of unanswered questions outside of the big improvements mentioned in the email:

Hours of service? (Current book? Bare bones FAR 117?) - This alone could be the difference.

How will Transition Conflicts now be handled?

Red-eye rules?

Re-assignment ability?

Dropping reserve days? (I see no mention of it in the official email)

Moving benefits?

Min days off?

Holiday pay? (Needs to go way up, IMO)

And what about that "Industry Leading Per-Diem" that Bendo thought we would all cream our jeans over?

So bottom line, remember what the email says "Until you get an official communication, THIS IS ALL UNRELIABLE SPECULATION. The only thing concrete so far is written in the email we received, which was copied and pasted earlier in the thread.

I'm holding out my opinion until I read the TA. It's not even certain there will be a TA. (See, I read my emails too.)

 

So you are giving us your opinion that you have no opinion until an official TA is released? I think I understood that right. I never claimed to be the voice of reason, just entitled to an opinion like everyone else.

 

Arguing on the Internet his fun!!!! Especially when the FACTS get involved.

You sure you’re not thinking of USAir?

The industry? You sure about that?

You have the rates from DAL, FedEx, UPS, Alaska, and SW from that time?

I’ll wait......

 

I thought I'd chime in a with depressing thought to consider:

I believe we are reaching the end of this current, upward bargaining cycle. Airline profit margins are dropping, fuel prices are rising and the economy is nearly peaked out. The unemployment rate is about as good as it ever gets, and just can't get much better. The planes can't get any fuller, as load factors are already sky high. As fuel prices continue to march higher, I fear the peak of airline profits are already behind us. Every airline in the country made less money Q3 of 2017 than Q3 of 2016. There have been huge improvements in many airline contracts, but I believe the bar won't be set much higher, if at all. United is one hiccup away from losing money, and if they do, the pilots won't be getting another raise.

Frontier, Spirit and JetBlue desperately need to catch up before the inevitable downward cycle. I read a page or two back reference to: "where will United be in 4 years & and where will that put us?" It's a great question, and perhaps I'm wrong and United gets another raise, but I don't see it. I think the current United contract is the best it'll be, or at least darn close.

Just a thought.

 

No offense, but weren't your coworkers all paying for their own type ratings a few years ago? WN might be the land of milk and honey and kumbaya today but it wasn't that long ago that it was a stepping stone to a 'real airline' (whatever that is) that was emptying trailer parks with every departure. Frontier guys pay for their own hotel rooms in training and how many Delta guys were PFT back at ASA years ago? It's easy to look down and forget everything you were to get where you are today.

I know someone chimed in about United in four years and my honest opinion is that UAL will furlough 3,000+ within five years and will be negotiating back those raises. I won't have a problem making $240/hour as a 4th year captain versus a $150/hour 4th year FO with major gains in LTD and scope that will guarantee that I'll be around to fight the next fight. It's been a long fight and our bird in hand versus two in the bush nets a 4th year captain nearly a $100k pay raise. Is it worth risking another year with no LTD or scope for another $10-20k?
That's something each NK pilot will have to decide. It's not a home run but it puts us within grenade range of most everyone else and with the hard fought, and won, protections and retirement in place we'll be in a better position on the next go around.

 

I agree, well said.

 

Yup. WSJ says oil going to $83/ barrel soon. Close the deal!

 

From what I found, top CA at UAL DOS in 2012 was $188 on the A320, while Spirit was $151 DOS (2010). So when Spirit got the deal in 2010 what was the UAL pilots rates? That I can't find. I assume it was still a BK contract. Also when Spirit got the deal in 2010, DAL was under the 2008 joint contract with NWA I think

 

You would be correct. But can you show me where I brought UAL into that equation?

Let's see, I'll give you LOA19/DAL 2008 rates, for year 2012. Can you give me what Spirit got after the strike for 2012? If I'm wrong, I will humbly concede and remove that ONE from the my question and this post will be in vain. Now, I'm going on APC rates for CURRENT Spirit which are the "matured";

2012 DAL new hire 58/hr
Current Spirit new hire 38/hr, industry leading?

2012 Year 5 DAL CA/FO A320 165/106
Current Spirit 5 year CA/FO 136/90, industry leading?

2012 10 year DAL CA/FO A320 172/117
Current Spirit CA/FO 160/109, industry leading?

2012 12 (max) DAL CA/FO A320 174/119
12 year current Spirit CA/FO 170/109, industry leading?

AGAIN, if you have DAL rates from that time that AREN'T the above, please show em.

 

The United pilots are currently in negotiations. You are telling us you don’t think they will get a minimum of 4% raises for the duration of any deal and other gains across the board in this environment?

Really?

I believe their A320 captain hourly rate will easily be in excess of $310 in 2022. And Delta and American.