We got an AIP!
01-15-2018 | 02:04 AM
#291
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,826
Likes: 0
From: 6th place
No offense, but weren't your coworkers all paying for their own type ratings a few years ago? WN might be the land of milk and honey and kumbaya today but it wasn't that long ago that it was a stepping stone to a 'real airline' (whatever that is) that was emptying trailer parks with every departure. Frontier guys pay for their own hotel rooms in training and how many Delta guys were PFT back at ASA years ago? It's easy to look down and forget everything you were to get where you are today.
I know someone chimed in about United in four years and my honest opinion is that UAL will furlough 3,000+ within five years and will be negotiating back those raises. I won't have a problem making $240/hour as a 4th year captain versus a $150/hour 4th year FO with major gains in LTD and scope that will guarantee that I'll be around to fight the next fight. It's been a long fight and our bird in hand versus two in the bush nets a 4th year captain nearly a $100k pay raise. Is it worth risking another year with no LTD or scope for another $10-20k?
That's something each NK pilot will have to decide. It's not a home run but it puts us within grenade range of most everyone else and with the hard fought, and won, protections and retirement in place we'll be in a better position on the next go around.
I know someone chimed in about United in four years and my honest opinion is that UAL will furlough 3,000+ within five years and will be negotiating back those raises. I won't have a problem making $240/hour as a 4th year captain versus a $150/hour 4th year FO with major gains in LTD and scope that will guarantee that I'll be around to fight the next fight. It's been a long fight and our bird in hand versus two in the bush nets a 4th year captain nearly a $100k pay raise. Is it worth risking another year with no LTD or scope for another $10-20k?
That's something each NK pilot will have to decide. It's not a home run but it puts us within grenade range of most everyone else and with the hard fought, and won, protections and retirement in place we'll be in a better position on the next go around.
If United furloughs 3k+ you better believe the entire industry will be hurting.
You don’t live in a bubble.
01-15-2018 | 02:21 AM
#292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: Yellow bus
No offense, but weren't your coworkers all paying for their own type ratings a few years ago? WN might be the land of milk and honey and kumbaya today but it wasn't that long ago that it was a stepping stone to a 'real airline' (whatever that is) that was emptying trailer parks with every departure. Frontier guys pay for their own hotel rooms in training and how many Delta guys were PFT back at ASA years ago? It's easy to look down and forget everything you were to get where you are today.
I know someone chimed in about United in four years and my honest opinion is that UAL will furlough 3,000+ within five years and will be negotiating back those raises. I won't have a problem making $240/hour as a 4th year captain versus a $150/hour 4th year FO with major gains in LTD and scope that will guarantee that I'll be around to fight the next fight. It's been a long fight and our bird in hand versus two in the bush nets a 4th year captain nearly a $100k pay raise. Is it worth risking another year with no LTD or scope for another $10-20k?
That's something each NK pilot will have to decide. It's not a home run but it puts us within grenade range of most everyone else and with the hard fought, and won, protections and retirement in place we'll be in a better position on the next go around.
I know someone chimed in about United in four years and my honest opinion is that UAL will furlough 3,000+ within five years and will be negotiating back those raises. I won't have a problem making $240/hour as a 4th year captain versus a $150/hour 4th year FO with major gains in LTD and scope that will guarantee that I'll be around to fight the next fight. It's been a long fight and our bird in hand versus two in the bush nets a 4th year captain nearly a $100k pay raise. Is it worth risking another year with no LTD or scope for another $10-20k?
That's something each NK pilot will have to decide. It's not a home run but it puts us within grenade range of most everyone else and with the hard fought, and won, protections and retirement in place we'll be in a better position on the next go around.
I think our economy is sitting on a huuuuuuuge bubble right now and a correction is right around the corner.
01-15-2018 | 02:24 AM
#293
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,277
Likes: 273
From: B737CA
No offense, but weren't your coworkers all paying for their own type ratings a few years ago? WN might be the land of milk and honey and kumbaya today but it wasn't that long ago that it was a stepping stone to a 'real airline' (whatever that is) that was emptying trailer parks with every departure. Frontier guys pay for their own hotel rooms in training and how many Delta guys were PFT back at ASA years ago? It's easy to look down and forget everything you were to get where you are today.
I know someone chimed in about United in four years and my honest opinion is that UAL will furlough 3,000+ within five years and will be negotiating back those raises. I won't have a problem making $240/hour as a 4th year captain versus a $150/hour 4th year FO with major gains in LTD and scope that will guarantee that I'll be around to fight the next fight. It's been a long fight and our bird in hand versus two in the bush nets a 4th year captain nearly a $100k pay raise. Is it worth risking another year with no LTD or scope for another $10-20k?
That's something each NK pilot will have to decide. It's not a home run but it puts us within grenade range of most everyone else and with the hard fought, and won, protections and retirement in place we'll be in a better position on the next go around.
I know someone chimed in about United in four years and my honest opinion is that UAL will furlough 3,000+ within five years and will be negotiating back those raises. I won't have a problem making $240/hour as a 4th year captain versus a $150/hour 4th year FO with major gains in LTD and scope that will guarantee that I'll be around to fight the next fight. It's been a long fight and our bird in hand versus two in the bush nets a 4th year captain nearly a $100k pay raise. Is it worth risking another year with no LTD or scope for another $10-20k?
That's something each NK pilot will have to decide. It's not a home run but it puts us within grenade range of most everyone else and with the hard fought, and won, protections and retirement in place we'll be in a better position on the next go around.
Whatever makes you feel better... I’m not telling you to vote yes or no. I am merely trying to get you to be an informed voter.
I’m also trying to tell you not to be afraid of the mediator. Her job is to procure an agreement and she is well within her scope of duties to scare you into an agreement by virtually any means necessary, including lying to you. The NMB doesn’t care about the fairness or the quality of the contract, only that it gets done as that’s the only metric they measure.
I know it’s not all about rates. It’s about work rules. Do you keep yours? PBS is a huge question mark.
01-15-2018 | 03:40 AM
#294
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
You would be correct. But can you show me where I brought UAL into that equation?
Let's see, I'll give you LOA19/DAL 2008 rates, for year 2012. Can you give me what Spirit got after the strike for 2012? If I'm wrong, I will humbly concede and remove that ONE from the my question and this post will be in vain. Now, I'm going on APC rates for CURRENT Spirit which are the "matured";
2012 DAL new hire 58/hr
Current Spirit new hire 38/hr, industry leading?
2012 Year 5 DAL CA/FO A320 165/106
Current Spirit 5 year CA/FO 136/90, industry leading?
2012 10 year DAL CA/FO A320 172/117
Current Spirit CA/FO 160/109, industry leading?
2012 12 (max) DAL CA/FO A320 174/119
12 year current Spirit CA/FO 170/109, industry leading?
AGAIN, if you have DAL rates from that time that AREN'T the above, please show em.
Let's see, I'll give you LOA19/DAL 2008 rates, for year 2012. Can you give me what Spirit got after the strike for 2012? If I'm wrong, I will humbly concede and remove that ONE from the my question and this post will be in vain. Now, I'm going on APC rates for CURRENT Spirit which are the "matured";
2012 DAL new hire 58/hr
Current Spirit new hire 38/hr, industry leading?
2012 Year 5 DAL CA/FO A320 165/106
Current Spirit 5 year CA/FO 136/90, industry leading?
2012 10 year DAL CA/FO A320 172/117
Current Spirit CA/FO 160/109, industry leading?
2012 12 (max) DAL CA/FO A320 174/119
12 year current Spirit CA/FO 170/109, industry leading?
AGAIN, if you have DAL rates from that time that AREN'T the above, please show em.
Let’s look at 2006. How about. 2009?
In 2004 Delta pilots agreed to a 33% pay reduction as part of a 5 year deal. Then again in 2006 agreed to another 14% pay cut. Plus I believe pensions went away. What’s the pay average out to over the last decade between the two?
When have the Spirit guys ever given anything back?
One jerk said keep discount pilot on their lanyards, perhaps concession stand pilot is better for some of the legacies, or future furloughie.
I’ll correct my statement about highest paid in the industry after their strike, and say highest paid Airbus operators after their strike.
01-15-2018 | 03:44 AM
#295
Banned
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
You would be correct. But can you show me where I brought UAL into that equation?
Let's see, I'll give you LOA19/DAL 2008 rates, for year 2012. Can you give me what Spirit got after the strike for 2012? If I'm wrong, I will humbly concede and remove that ONE from the my question and this post will be in vain. Now, I'm going on APC rates for CURRENT Spirit which are the "matured";
2012 DAL new hire 58/hr
Current Spirit new hire 38/hr, industry leading?
2012 Year 5 DAL CA/FO A320 165/106
Current Spirit 5 year CA/FO 136/90, industry leading?
2012 10 year DAL CA/FO A320 172/117
Current Spirit CA/FO 160/109, industry leading?
2012 12 (max) DAL CA/FO A320 174/119
12 year current Spirit CA/FO 170/109, industry leading?
AGAIN, if you have DAL rates from that time that AREN'T the above, please show em.
Let's see, I'll give you LOA19/DAL 2008 rates, for year 2012. Can you give me what Spirit got after the strike for 2012? If I'm wrong, I will humbly concede and remove that ONE from the my question and this post will be in vain. Now, I'm going on APC rates for CURRENT Spirit which are the "matured";
2012 DAL new hire 58/hr
Current Spirit new hire 38/hr, industry leading?
2012 Year 5 DAL CA/FO A320 165/106
Current Spirit 5 year CA/FO 136/90, industry leading?
2012 10 year DAL CA/FO A320 172/117
Current Spirit CA/FO 160/109, industry leading?
2012 12 (max) DAL CA/FO A320 174/119
12 year current Spirit CA/FO 170/109, industry leading?
AGAIN, if you have DAL rates from that time that AREN'T the above, please show em.
01-15-2018 | 04:47 AM
#297
Banned
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Couldnt agree more with your statement!! Its like the DC plans and how everyone has fallin in love with the 14-16% that most have meow. Ask me what that 16% is worth when the market turns again. We forget that this economical boom for the airlines wont last forever. This is a feast or famine industry period and it will always be because its so tied to the small economical ups and downs.
01-15-2018 | 04:52 AM
#298
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Likes: 0
This is a good post. Let’s quit the measuring contests from years past. It’s a dead end
Hey guys... don't we remember just 5-6 months ago Lincoln Osiris and Co were all designated as Company Trolls here to pit us against each other and lower our expectations? Union Buster
Now that he has close to 200 posts he's suddenly the voice of reason?
I just read through most of this thread tonight and despite the name calling early on, it mostly justifies why I read an Airline Forum on my time off. Because I want to hear *everyones'* opinion. I want to hear what everyone has to say, put it all in my own head and let it rattle around.
Remember, WE DON'T KNOW MUCH OF ANYTHING YET. There are still a ton of unanswered questions outside of the big improvements mentioned in the email:
Hours of service? (Current book? Bare bones FAR 117?) - This alone could be the difference.
How will Transition Conflicts now be handled?
Red-eye rules?
Re-assignment ability?
Dropping reserve days? (I see no mention of it in the official email)
Moving benefits?
Min days off?
Holiday pay? (Needs to go way up, IMO)
And what about that "Industry Leading Per-Diem" that Bendo thought we would all cream our jeans over?
So bottom line, remember what the email says "Until you get an official communication, THIS IS ALL UNRELIABLE SPECULATION. The only thing concrete so far is written in the email we received, which was copied and pasted earlier in the thread.
I'm holding out my opinion until I read the TA. It's not even certain there will be a TA. (See, I read my emails too.)
Now that he has close to 200 posts he's suddenly the voice of reason?
I just read through most of this thread tonight and despite the name calling early on, it mostly justifies why I read an Airline Forum on my time off. Because I want to hear *everyones'* opinion. I want to hear what everyone has to say, put it all in my own head and let it rattle around.
Remember, WE DON'T KNOW MUCH OF ANYTHING YET. There are still a ton of unanswered questions outside of the big improvements mentioned in the email:
Hours of service? (Current book? Bare bones FAR 117?) - This alone could be the difference.
How will Transition Conflicts now be handled?
Red-eye rules?
Re-assignment ability?
Dropping reserve days? (I see no mention of it in the official email)
Moving benefits?
Min days off?
Holiday pay? (Needs to go way up, IMO)
And what about that "Industry Leading Per-Diem" that Bendo thought we would all cream our jeans over?
So bottom line, remember what the email says "Until you get an official communication, THIS IS ALL UNRELIABLE SPECULATION. The only thing concrete so far is written in the email we received, which was copied and pasted earlier in the thread.
I'm holding out my opinion until I read the TA. It's not even certain there will be a TA. (See, I read my emails too.)
01-15-2018 | 05:15 AM
#299
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,457
Likes: 6
From: Airbus 320 Right Seat
In 30 pages, all I seem to read most about is pay and min day questions , what's about the other common stuff? Hotels , training /recurrent pay, commuting clause, positive space etc . No doubt pay is extremely important but so are the other 20 sections of a CBA .
as for the comments about United furloughing 3000 , I don't see this happening to the extent being claimed on this thread . Sure is a correction due , I would say yes , a correction is typically a 10 percent ish type of momevmt across the board. The industry has thousands of regiments happening which would probably absorb the need for airlines to slow down growth .
9/11 had none to speak of with the addition of age 65 rule coming into play . I could see a correction but man 3000 furloughs from one airline is huge . Another large scale event like 9/11 or great would have to take place.
For all of us here I hope not .
Best of luck on your guys contract
as for the comments about United furloughing 3000 , I don't see this happening to the extent being claimed on this thread . Sure is a correction due , I would say yes , a correction is typically a 10 percent ish type of momevmt across the board. The industry has thousands of regiments happening which would probably absorb the need for airlines to slow down growth .
9/11 had none to speak of with the addition of age 65 rule coming into play . I could see a correction but man 3000 furloughs from one airline is huge . Another large scale event like 9/11 or great would have to take place.
For all of us here I hope not .
Best of luck on your guys contract
01-15-2018 | 05:26 AM
#300
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Couldnt agree more with your statement!! Its like the DC plans and how everyone has fallin in love with the 14-16% that most have meow. Ask me what that 16% is worth when the market turns again. We forget that this economical boom for the airlines wont last forever. This is a feast or famine industry period and it will always be because its so tied to the small economical ups and downs.
Just don’t understand what your saying I guess.
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