I don't watch FNC or NFL. I think for myself.

 

Um, it is greed when that "own money" you are referring to is from a very rich *collective* bargaining agreement.

Non-union wages of similar operations in aviation are lower. So that small portion of his "own money" wouldn't have been his in the first place if not for his union.

 

I worked in IT for many years before going to the airlines. Not one of my employers had unions. I made well over 6 figures in IT. My first professional job in IT had a salary in the high 5 figures. It would be comparable to a regional FO job but with much better pay. As I moved up in my career I was able to leave every job for a higher paying job. Still no union.

Pay was based on market demand. During the Y2K and the dot.com days companies were offering car leases as part of sign on bonuses. I had many companies pay 100% of my medical benefits. Other than my college education 100% of my training was paid for by my employer. That included single occupancy rooms at good hotels, all meals paid for and a rental car should I choose. In most cases the employer would have paid for my college education too. Still no union.

I never had to negotiate for anything on my job and raises were regular and expected based on specific criteria in the employee manual. I also got additional raises based on merit.

All without a union.

To be clear I am not advocating to get rid of all unions in aviation. I am only advocating for pilots to have a choice. But I suspect the unions are afraid of that.

I do see the benefits of collective bargaining but I don’t think without it we will see an apocalypse. In fact I think if the seniority system went away airlines will increasingly fall over over themselves to poach pilots from competing airlines. We are already seeing this with bonuses for prior 121 time at many regionals. If things continue the way they are we will likely see legacies doing the same.

 

I am simply going to say that in my last job I was a part of the non union group due to the state I worked in. Every single one of our benefits was better than that of the union group. More days off, more personal days, more vacation days, better 401k. I made me wonder what the purpose of the union was.

Now when it comes to airlines unions are needed to negotiate contracts when the market has an oversupply of pilots, right now airlines are fighting for pilots and want to offer some things to attract more pilots but the unions won't allow without a complete change of the contract. I.E. Company wants to offer bonus or increase entry level pay to get more applicants through the door. The union says no because it doesn't help captains. So the end result is no one getting better pay. I would rather half get better pay than none. The result of not attracting new pilots causes regionals to cancel flights, canceled flights ultimately causes a loss of job of those that voted no to increase pay for half the group.

This also extends to contract amendments, Unions push the no vote for small improvements to reserve rules or benefits due to not including improvements for other areas of the contract or not going far enough. The only thing that forces a company to offer more is they see a need to, if they saw a need to offer 200% open time but not 250% voting no and leaving it at 150% causes no one to win.

A business will increase things as the market dictates, the unions at this point are slowing things down.

 

Apples and oranges, but we'll keep it simple.

I have been at JB for many years now. Many without a union. During those years, we we're never treated like you say you were treated in your previous line of work.

No big above industry raises. No full paid healthcare. No car leases, still can't believe JB didn't lease me a new car, but they didn't. In fact, we nearly always trailed our union peers at other airlines, sometimes by a lot. And they would change very consequential work rules and profit sharing plans via email.

So, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, no thanks.

Back to my original question of you. In your ideal world where you worked for a union airline, let's say Delta, and you were given the option to not pay union dues at all, what pay, rules and benefits would you expect to work under?

 

I completely understand how the economy works. I get that it costs money for lawyers to negotiate deals.

However see my post above about my experience in IT. I didn’t have to negotiate anything during my entire IT career. The companies I worked for negotiated with each other to see who could offer the best total package to get me to come work for them. And it’s not like I was some IT genius who created some magic function that changed the landscape of social media. I was a regular run of the mill IT worker. I was probably below average to my contemporaries. Yet companies would fall all over themselves to make better offers than thier competition. And it didn’t cost me a dime or require me to join a union.

By example, I think the seniority system is the worst thing to happen to pilots. This was a union idea. A pilot puts 5 years into a company and if they leave they start all over at the bottom of the pay scale. How convenient for management. Thier pilots are literal hostages to the seniority system. We have the union to thank for this abomination that so many pilots think is the greatest thing since the invention of beer.

There are some really great reasons for pilots to band together, safety for example is a great reason for pilots to stand up to management. A union would be perfect for that. But I think unions have kept the pilot group from even better pay than we have today through things like the seniority system. Something needs to change.

 

Couldn't disagree more. You are posting in a JB thread. If you knew how JB pay and benefits compared to our union peers you would be rethinking your position. I suspect that those companies were paying the non-union guys better to prove a point. In a vacuum, without the threat of a union, I don't believe that would be the case.

Like I said to the other guy, worked at non-union JB for years. None of those awesome things happened. Below average pay, benefits and work rules. Detrimental rule, benefit and pay changes via forced email. NO NEW CAR LEASES!!!

Been there, don't that, got the T-shirt. No thanks.

 

You’re missing a really big part of why unions are necessary for airlines. In every other profession, your skills and experience go with you. If company X isn’t paying you enough, you can go to company Y and you can start at or above your current pay and position. In the airline world, if after 5 or 10 years working at airline x, they aren’t paying enough, you can’t go to your same seat/longevity at airline Y. You are beneath even the most junior guy who started there before you. That, coupled with being held under the RLA which absolutely handcuffs us and works in management’s favor, requires unions to be able to negotiate and improve pay/QOL and fight to improve things where you are. Free market forces can’t work in the airline pilot world. Without union support, companies have a huge advantage on an uneven playing field.

 

OK, I don't work at JetBlue, yet. I flew left seat heavy aircraft in the Air Force and have 6000 hours of 121 time. Say I'm willing to fly A320s at JetBlue for $170 an hour. Please tell me who prevents management from hiring me to do exactly that.

 

Weren't you here while JB was non-union? You didn't get your NEW CAR LEASE?!?