ALPA loses last ditch effort
05-07-2012 | 07:23 PM
#51
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From: Bent Over
I brought up the Amerijet as an example of cross union and cross class and craft support.
IBT? In the joint CBA that merged Atlas and Polar, Polar went up over 34% and Atlas 27%. Captain on a -400 is over $200/hr. Not as good as some, but with the rigs and profit sharing (18.5%) for 2010 and 2011 going out in a week or so, that put over $25,000 in a lot of folks pockets. Under the new CBA, a projected trip that under the old contract was worth about $14,000 will pay out over $21,000. Remember also it's their second contract.
Omni just came up substantially. Republic has been hamstrung by the old, failed leadership that was kicked out three years ago. The merger delayed discussions, but they will move up as well. UAL Mechanics...up and now merging for an even bigger bite of the apple, along with the agreements that brought back all MRO worked that had been farmed out offshore, bringing back furloughed members.
Cape Air...first contract with increases. Ever heard of a 402 Captain making close to $100K a year?
UPS Mechanics well into six digits.
Fact is, they have yet under the new leadership, to agree to a concessionary contract. Any attempts to bring them forward have been met with a message that the IBT will not sign them.
You can point at the bottom all you want. What you miss and won't admit it that unless we support each other, everyone is at risk. (And yes, Airline Division pilots joined ALPA brothers at Spirit to walk the line in support, just like the Spirit guys did for them)
ALPA wasn't interested in Amerijet...too small, not worthy. ALPA PILOTS stood with them as did individual MEC's and LEC's. National refused.
We're all in this together. Until we start acting like it and truly support each other, pilots, F/A's, mechanics, loaders, fuelers...we're gonna keep getting picked off just like we saw in the 80's and 90's.
You might ask yourself how many new airlines have joined ALPA in the past 4 years? How's the model working right now? What is ALPA's current growth rate?
I personally don't care if you look into things or not. Sometimes facing the truth and making change to survive is just too big a step for some.
AirTran...aren't they the pilots that just filed a DFR against ALPA? Like TWA did? And the UAL senior...and junior pilots? Seems like a trend...
IBT? In the joint CBA that merged Atlas and Polar, Polar went up over 34% and Atlas 27%. Captain on a -400 is over $200/hr. Not as good as some, but with the rigs and profit sharing (18.5%) for 2010 and 2011 going out in a week or so, that put over $25,000 in a lot of folks pockets. Under the new CBA, a projected trip that under the old contract was worth about $14,000 will pay out over $21,000. Remember also it's their second contract.
Omni just came up substantially. Republic has been hamstrung by the old, failed leadership that was kicked out three years ago. The merger delayed discussions, but they will move up as well. UAL Mechanics...up and now merging for an even bigger bite of the apple, along with the agreements that brought back all MRO worked that had been farmed out offshore, bringing back furloughed members.
Cape Air...first contract with increases. Ever heard of a 402 Captain making close to $100K a year?
UPS Mechanics well into six digits.
Fact is, they have yet under the new leadership, to agree to a concessionary contract. Any attempts to bring them forward have been met with a message that the IBT will not sign them.
You can point at the bottom all you want. What you miss and won't admit it that unless we support each other, everyone is at risk. (And yes, Airline Division pilots joined ALPA brothers at Spirit to walk the line in support, just like the Spirit guys did for them)
ALPA wasn't interested in Amerijet...too small, not worthy. ALPA PILOTS stood with them as did individual MEC's and LEC's. National refused.
We're all in this together. Until we start acting like it and truly support each other, pilots, F/A's, mechanics, loaders, fuelers...we're gonna keep getting picked off just like we saw in the 80's and 90's.
You might ask yourself how many new airlines have joined ALPA in the past 4 years? How's the model working right now? What is ALPA's current growth rate?
I personally don't care if you look into things or not. Sometimes facing the truth and making change to survive is just too big a step for some.
AirTran...aren't they the pilots that just filed a DFR against ALPA? Like TWA did? And the UAL senior...and junior pilots? Seems like a trend...
Oh no you don't.. UPS mechanics yes 6 figures but they have PT mechanics too and are very lean compared to FX mechanics. Ask the UAL MX how they like the reamsters they are the worst they have had yet after IAM and AMFA. If the Reamsters have a good contract it is because the company in question offered it and not because of anything the reamsters did. Old Jimmy Hoffa flew NWA during the mechanics AMFA strike in 2005.
05-07-2012 | 07:47 PM
#52
Ok, No more sleeping Dog
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 889
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From: MD-11, F/O
Can it be that ALPA National at it's core (read Nat'l/Legacy carriers) still has not realized and accepted that the Cargo outfits are it's life blood and future? The mindset at Nat'l is still DAL/UA/AMR forever.........no wonder the decision tree is so skewed.......Maybe time for the Cargo Members to flex a little bicep and take control.....after all, we are paying the bills.......just say'in
05-07-2012 | 08:02 PM
#53
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 88
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From: MD-11 Captain
Just a few comments back on topic:
1. ALPA hasn't been found guilty of a thing. That's a criminal term and doesn't even remotely apply here. And no it's not just semantics. They have been found liable for as yet to be determined damages. I can almost guarantee you that the damages award will be far below that 1.2 billion dollar number.
2. The appeals aren't even remotely over. The trial judge denied motions for a new trial and a motion for a verdict, n.o.v. The previous appeal was by the plaintiffs side from an earlier dismissal of the whole darn case. After the damages portion of the trial and when the judgement is finally entered I will bet you my seniority number that there will be appeals by ALPA. And they'll be long ones. And yes ALPA likely has more money than either the plaintiffs or their attorneys. You do, generally, have to put up the judgement amount (more or less) during the appeals process usually in the form of a bond.
The only way ALPA won't appeal is if they win hands down at the damages phase, such as a verdict awarding a single dollar (yes juries can do that) or some other absurdly low amount.
3. I'll be retired and dead before this is resolved. And my family has some seriously absurd longevity genes.
4. Any assessment do indeed have to be voted on by the membership.
5. The upstart Delta pilot's "union" has reasons for painting this as gloom & doom, and they're not altogether altruistic. Oh and the Delta pilots have more than 12,000 members. Shooting for 6000 cards is seriously low in a union election. Many of those who signed won't vote for another union. And just as an aside, there's no procedure for decertifying a union under the RLA or by the NMB. It can be done, but it's a rather convoluted process. Been through this 3 times at FedEx, it's one of the few areas my aging, time zone handicapped, sleep deprived brain actually remembers -- well.
You can go back to your regular thread creep and discussion about whether FedEx pilots should remain in ALPA now.
1. ALPA hasn't been found guilty of a thing. That's a criminal term and doesn't even remotely apply here. And no it's not just semantics. They have been found liable for as yet to be determined damages. I can almost guarantee you that the damages award will be far below that 1.2 billion dollar number.
2. The appeals aren't even remotely over. The trial judge denied motions for a new trial and a motion for a verdict, n.o.v. The previous appeal was by the plaintiffs side from an earlier dismissal of the whole darn case. After the damages portion of the trial and when the judgement is finally entered I will bet you my seniority number that there will be appeals by ALPA. And they'll be long ones. And yes ALPA likely has more money than either the plaintiffs or their attorneys. You do, generally, have to put up the judgement amount (more or less) during the appeals process usually in the form of a bond.
The only way ALPA won't appeal is if they win hands down at the damages phase, such as a verdict awarding a single dollar (yes juries can do that) or some other absurdly low amount.
3. I'll be retired and dead before this is resolved. And my family has some seriously absurd longevity genes.
4. Any assessment do indeed have to be voted on by the membership.
5. The upstart Delta pilot's "union" has reasons for painting this as gloom & doom, and they're not altogether altruistic. Oh and the Delta pilots have more than 12,000 members. Shooting for 6000 cards is seriously low in a union election. Many of those who signed won't vote for another union. And just as an aside, there's no procedure for decertifying a union under the RLA or by the NMB. It can be done, but it's a rather convoluted process. Been through this 3 times at FedEx, it's one of the few areas my aging, time zone handicapped, sleep deprived brain actually remembers -- well.
You can go back to your regular thread creep and discussion about whether FedEx pilots should remain in ALPA now.
05-07-2012 | 08:04 PM
#54
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From: MD11 FO
05-07-2012 | 08:32 PM
#56
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From: 747-400 Captain
Thank you! Absolutely 100% correct. The whole tired "let's get rid of ALPA" argument is a complete waste of time. The problem is not ALPA (or APA, USAPA, etc.). I have lots of friends at Airways and they can not believe how much of a disaster USAPA has been.
FedEx or Delta management would absolutely love to see ALPA voted out......why do you think that is?
FedEx or Delta management would absolutely love to see ALPA voted out......why do you think that is?
Why do you think that is?
Carl
05-07-2012 | 08:35 PM
#57
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From: 747-400 Captain
Here's the point. ALPA, for all the good it has done in the industry, is not a union. It's an association that happens to be the legally recognized bargaining agent; a move that was done to provide some leverage at it's inception. Each carrier negotiates what it wants. There is no overarching plan for the long term because each carrier wants what it wants.
Now...that worked great in the days of the CAB. If you went on strike, no one could just jump into your markets. Nor could they any other time, the route award process took a long time and could be held up. Not so in the post CAB world. And ALPA, along with the member carriers, refused to come to grips with that and make the necessary changes to adapt to that. So airlines moved into new markets and used that as leverage to cut costs to cover the moves. They came after pilots. And instead of having a union that stood up, they conceded on contracts to stay alive.
Why did they concede? Because they had no support. Sure the MCF was great, but at the end of the day it was meaningless if the passenger or cargo customer now had another option in the market. And truth be told, there is nothing a pilot group on strike can do if a passenger or customer chooses to fly on another carrier. Unless there is a way to get the other carrier to stop flying as well.
There are two ways to do that. A sympathy strike by the other carriers pilots...impossible because they have a legal agreement and unless there is proof that all the passengers or cargo are from the struck carrier, the pilots are in violation of their own CBA.
Second, find a way to stop the struck carrier from moving with scab pilots and other employees who are not a part of the strike.
How does that happen? Affiliation, organizing and supporting other airline industry employees.
If the airline wants to use and hire scabs, fine...have at it. If the fuelers don't fuel, the mechanics don't turn wrenches, the F/A's won't cross the line, ticket agents and dispatchers don't do their job...the airline stops. If the airline tries to move cargo on another carrier, that airline gets struck by the same union that represents the same folks at the other carrier. So to keep flying, airline #2 tells airline #1 "don't send us your cargo, we won't take it." And what happens is management comes to the table and settles.
That can't happen with ALPA. While part of the AFL-CIO, it has always held itself out to be a "cut above" those "other" unions and airline employees. They don't support other unions and as a result, they don't get support. Look at the Amerijet strike. South FL AFL-CIO had members of all unions on the picket lines. There were cops, firefighters, teachers, garbagemen, bus drivers, individual airline MEC's and LEC's...you name it. Fuelers in the Carribbean cut off fuel. Other cargo airlines refused to carry their cargo. Only one national union was missing.
ALPA.
When the AFL-CIO shows up in force and it's major pilot union doesn't...it sends a message to others.
That is the problem created when you refuse to adapt and stand alone. You get no support.
How does that relate to the question at hand? Simple. By refusing to focus on true unity and truly standing up for each other, ALPA has allowed itself to become a place where everyone does pretty much what they want and the heck with the other guy. At the same time, they became so focused on $$, they did things that harmed members to improve the bottom line of the Association, not the members. TWA bit back. So will AirTran. Others likely may as well. And ALPA has no understanding of why or how to deal with it, so it falls back on the old mantra of discrediting the malcontents.
Which worked in the days where we operated with mailings, letters and whispering campaigns. Times changed with the demise of the CAB and now with electronic media and social networking.
And again, ALPA has not. The pilots are more informed. And like Churchill said, "Dictators run to and fro on the backs of tigers they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry."
If you want to see how a true airline union works and it's effectiveness, seek out one that represents all types of airline employees and look at how they are doing today.
Now...that worked great in the days of the CAB. If you went on strike, no one could just jump into your markets. Nor could they any other time, the route award process took a long time and could be held up. Not so in the post CAB world. And ALPA, along with the member carriers, refused to come to grips with that and make the necessary changes to adapt to that. So airlines moved into new markets and used that as leverage to cut costs to cover the moves. They came after pilots. And instead of having a union that stood up, they conceded on contracts to stay alive.
Why did they concede? Because they had no support. Sure the MCF was great, but at the end of the day it was meaningless if the passenger or cargo customer now had another option in the market. And truth be told, there is nothing a pilot group on strike can do if a passenger or customer chooses to fly on another carrier. Unless there is a way to get the other carrier to stop flying as well.
There are two ways to do that. A sympathy strike by the other carriers pilots...impossible because they have a legal agreement and unless there is proof that all the passengers or cargo are from the struck carrier, the pilots are in violation of their own CBA.
Second, find a way to stop the struck carrier from moving with scab pilots and other employees who are not a part of the strike.
How does that happen? Affiliation, organizing and supporting other airline industry employees.
If the airline wants to use and hire scabs, fine...have at it. If the fuelers don't fuel, the mechanics don't turn wrenches, the F/A's won't cross the line, ticket agents and dispatchers don't do their job...the airline stops. If the airline tries to move cargo on another carrier, that airline gets struck by the same union that represents the same folks at the other carrier. So to keep flying, airline #2 tells airline #1 "don't send us your cargo, we won't take it." And what happens is management comes to the table and settles.
That can't happen with ALPA. While part of the AFL-CIO, it has always held itself out to be a "cut above" those "other" unions and airline employees. They don't support other unions and as a result, they don't get support. Look at the Amerijet strike. South FL AFL-CIO had members of all unions on the picket lines. There were cops, firefighters, teachers, garbagemen, bus drivers, individual airline MEC's and LEC's...you name it. Fuelers in the Carribbean cut off fuel. Other cargo airlines refused to carry their cargo. Only one national union was missing.
ALPA.
When the AFL-CIO shows up in force and it's major pilot union doesn't...it sends a message to others.
That is the problem created when you refuse to adapt and stand alone. You get no support.
How does that relate to the question at hand? Simple. By refusing to focus on true unity and truly standing up for each other, ALPA has allowed itself to become a place where everyone does pretty much what they want and the heck with the other guy. At the same time, they became so focused on $$, they did things that harmed members to improve the bottom line of the Association, not the members. TWA bit back. So will AirTran. Others likely may as well. And ALPA has no understanding of why or how to deal with it, so it falls back on the old mantra of discrediting the malcontents.
Which worked in the days where we operated with mailings, letters and whispering campaigns. Times changed with the demise of the CAB and now with electronic media and social networking.
And again, ALPA has not. The pilots are more informed. And like Churchill said, "Dictators run to and fro on the backs of tigers they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry."
If you want to see how a true airline union works and it's effectiveness, seek out one that represents all types of airline employees and look at how they are doing today.
Carl
05-07-2012 | 08:37 PM
#58
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From: 747-400 Captain
Why don't you give me multiple examples. After all, Amerijet does make smoking wages. And nobody crossed the picket line, right? APA went to the tables slamming their fists and screaming. That got them far. We all know how well USAPA is doing. And IBT, well they're just burning it up. Republic has been in contract negotiations for 7 years. The AT independent union never got a contract done. I'll be waiting.
Carl
05-08-2012 | 03:41 AM
#59
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From: Retired FDX MD11 Capt
05-08-2012 | 05:23 AM
#60
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From: B757/767
Last edited by johnso29; 05-08-2012 at 07:00 AM.
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