Random Task

They don't want us to vote because it would be another 2000 no's.

A320

I haven’t heard anyone say this looks good

TodKindrsChikun

I never said anything about mentoring or blaming probationary pilots. I’m just an average line pilot who offered my opinion. If you’re so enraged call your LEC who can get you an official answer based on rooted policy.

I honestly feel this agreement is partly a result of Neg Com pilots, who never fly the line, haven’t polled the pilot group in almost 4 years, have become accustomed to solving the company’s problems, make wild assumptions not based on reality, etc.

Regarding who cares more about the contract, gmab! Have you been reading these message boards? Countless posts about how they are nearing retirement but refuse to saddle us with an onerous agreement wasting our leverage. In my career at United I’ve personally witnessed senior pilots voting not in their best interest but aligning with the pilot 20 years junior.

BobbyLeeSwagger

I really appreciate that and you're right, many on their way out are voting no. But that Hitler video meme wouldn't have been so funny if it wasn't a little true, maybe in times past, maybe now too.

RJSAviator76

An FYI... At Southwest, probationary pilots still have a vote and a say on any TA, SL or election.

rickair7777

Tend to agree. It's not oriented at BobbyLee and others who came from a union airline, but more at mil and random 91/135 cats and dogs who probably need some time to learn which side of the bread is actually buttered, etc.

Not unreasonable to to let prior ALPA members vote sooner. But not happening in time for this TA.

Buck Rogers

Why do furloughed pilots not get to vote? One of the reasons is that they will vote for any POS contract that will get them back on property quickest. Using the same logic... "Pilots will vote for what's best for their pocketbook"... the guys going out the door due to retirement will do the same. Most are senioir, will not be on reserve, and want their paltry 14.5 %. The long game be damned.

I find your confidence about mil, and random 91/135 who need time to be groomed not only insulting but laughable. You act like they are incapable of logical thought when presented with "facts" like a pro/con paper.

BTW I would put the "close to retirement guys" at 90% or > to approve the TA. I would put the naïve nubes at 50-50. Instructors???? prolly the majority will be for the TA. They can say what they want, and can even show their vote..... only to change it later.....but when the voting booth curtain has been drawn... the vast majority of pilots will vote what they think is best for them(and family). It's just human nature.

It's not like the half wingers are 8 years old and incapable of critical thinking and need you and TodKinds to spoon feed them

Anonhalfwing

I’m just a halfwinger, so take this with a grain of salt, but one thing I think many potential yes voters may not have experience with is how an airline works during a Pilot shortage. Imagine your worst weather day here- EWR, ORD, DEN all hit with thunderstorms. Pretty bad right? All the new reassignment rules and early reserve shows would get utilized. Your long JAX layover to golf with your college buddy is now a minrest IND overnight. Your RDO’s have just been rolled for a six day. But what can you do about the weather right? I’m sure that’s what the NC had in mind when they gave up some of these protections. The company would occasionally utilize it during very bad weather days and most pilots would get a nice little pay bump once or twice a year to keep the operation on the rails.

We are currently competing for a shrinking pool of pilots, taking deliveries of what, a new NB every few days for the next 3-4 years? The aviate academy people won’t hit the line at mainline for years. The staffing situation is going to deteriorate until we either hit a major recession, the regionals go away and we absorb their pilots, or several years after we stop taking new NB aircraft.

Every. Single. Day. At a chronically understaffed airline looks like a system wide terrible weather day here.

I came from a chronically under-staffed regional. It was this way by design, because *it is always cheaper to pay fewer pilots more money*. Our contract was full of awesome soft pay and “disincentives” for the company to reroute or extend us. When push came to shove, none of it mattered. The company would happily pay 300% to keep the metal moving than actually staff the airline correctly. Our leadership said “A day with an unused reserve means we have too many reserves”. Aside from covid, I was used *every single day* on reserve. I was junior manned or extended via ACARS, constant phone calls, management meeting you at the jetbridge, and once, believe it or not, while sitting in the back on a DH via a note passed by the FA. Pick up a day trip? Enjoy your four day. I packed for six days no matter what my schedule said. It was, no exaggeration, often a 50/50 chance whether you’d see any of the overnight cities you bid for. Every time you went through a hub you were a reserve (sound familiar?). I honestly don’t think the NC or many pilots here can even fathom the abuse that happens when you have 75% of the pilots you need to fly the schedule. Most pilots were making 120+ hours of credit a month, I am not exaggerating. The company does not care about this extra pay if it gets the flying done. I literally laughed out loud at the idea that enough people will willingly pick up these 6am shows that it won’t adversely effect commuting reserves.

But, the company is going to pay for it! Sure. But ask yourself, are you going to be fundamentally happier with a 9% hourly raise (I’m not counting the *already negotiated and agreed upon covid 5%), some add pay tossed your way and being treated like a borrowed mule the entire time you’re at work, or are you going to be happier keeping your work rules and forcing the company back to the table? I would rather overnight in the cities I bid for and enjoy my schedule and time at work than make a fraction more and be miserable. When I got here I felt like I could breathe again. I didn’t dread coming to work. A call from scheduling on an off day meant *good* things. Almost none of my life improvement here was linked to pay (although it’s certainly a perk), it was linked to being treated professionally. Flying the line I bid. Enjoying my days off. This TA has made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Having seen what happens to any company when their back is against the wall with staffing, I would rather fly the current book for another two years than give up an INCH on work rules, or an INCH on scope (including instructor scope). There is ZERO reason to when we have their back to the wall with the instructor shortage.

I have been treated very well by this company and I don’t mean to imply that management here is some sort of evil villain; but at the end of the day their job is to move planes and make money, not to make us happy. Many times those goals are not mutually exclusive, but during severe staffing shortages they are. Do not give them the tools to turn working here into what it’s like working at a regional.

Respectfully,

The Pilot you bought dinner for last trip.

But seriously

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but at a different ALPA shop they explained that the possibility of probationary pilots being targeted by management was the problem.
Obviously UAL has too many probies currently for that to be an issue, but at a smaller shop, you could imagine management holding peoples jobs in front of them while trying to coerce a vote out of them.

Aldo Raine

Many, if not most, new guys are coming from a regional and would likely have a good grasp on voting perspective.

I say let the regional guys vote, but don’t let the purely mil guys vote. Mil guys tend to be “order takers” and “mission accomplished”.

Coming from a mil guy.