Originally Posted by rickair7777

Tend to agree. It's not oriented at BobbyLee and others who came from a union airline, but more at mil and random 91/135 cats and dogs who probably need some time to learn which side of the bread is actually buttered, etc.

Not unreasonable to to let prior ALPA members vote sooner. But not happening in time for this TA.

Originally Posted by ytumama

Don’t forget the military guys so accustomed to manipulation/abuse that they wonder why we need unions at all.

Originally Posted by UALinIAH

Easy there. I was military and mentored pretty quick by some damn fine Unionists when I came to UAL many years ago

Originally Posted by ytumama

I was military too and did union work at a prior airline. Military guys are broadly conditioned to see the bigger picture/greater good at the expense of the individual and behest of the higher ups. Plus, lots of anti-union propaganda ingested over many years sets them up for failure. It takes a while for a lot of them to get it. Definitely not in the same boat as prior 121 union pilots, some of which were MEC/LEC chairs or on the NC their last airline.

Originally Posted by Aldo Raine

I say let the regional guys vote, but don’t let the purely mil guys vote.

Originally Posted by AxlF16

Four pages of something that can't and won't happen on this TA? If you want probationary pilots to vote --- THEN PASS A COUNCIL RESOLUTION and get that ball rolling for future votes. Be sure to write a solid resolution so it can pass.

Originally Posted by Anonhalfwing

I’m just a halfwinger, so take this with a grain of salt, but one thing I think many potential yes voters may not have experience with is how an airline works during a Pilot shortage. Imagine your worst weather day here- EWR, ORD, DEN all hit with thunderstorms. Pretty bad right? All the new reassignment rules and early reserve shows would get utilized. Your long JAX layover to golf with your college buddy is now a minrest IND overnight. Your RDO’s have just been rolled for a six day. But what can you do about the weather right? I’m sure that’s what the NC had in mind when they gave up some of these protections. The company would occasionally utilize it during very bad weather days and most pilots would get a nice little pay bump once or twice a year to keep the operation on the rails.

We are currently competing for a shrinking pool of pilots, taking deliveries of what, a new NB every few days for the next 3-4 years? The aviate academy people won’t hit the line at mainline for years. The staffing situation is going to deteriorate until we either hit a major recession, the regionals go away and we absorb their pilots, or several years after we stop taking new NB aircraft.

Every. Single. Day. At a chronically understaffed airline looks like a system wide terrible weather day here.

I came from a chronically under-staffed regional. It was this way by design, because *it is always cheaper to pay fewer pilots more money*. Our contract was full of awesome soft pay and “disincentives” for the company to reroute or extend us. When push came to shove, none of it mattered. The company would happily pay 300% to keep the metal moving than actually staff the airline correctly. Our leadership said “A day with an unused reserve means we have too many reserves”. Aside from covid, I was used *every single day* on reserve. I was junior manned or extended via ACARS, constant phone calls, management meeting you at the jetbridge, and once, believe it or not, while sitting in the back on a DH via a note passed by the FA. Pick up a day trip? Enjoy your four day. I packed for six days no matter what my schedule said. It was, no exaggeration, often a 50/50 chance whether you’d see any of the overnight cities you bid for. Every time you went through a hub you were a reserve (sound familiar?). I honestly don’t think the NC or many pilots here can even fathom the abuse that happens when you have 75% of the pilots you need to fly the schedule. Most pilots were making 120+ hours of credit a month, I am not exaggerating. The company does not care about this extra pay if it gets the flying done. I literally laughed out loud at the idea that enough people will willingly pick up these 6am shows that it won’t adversely effect commuting reserves.

But, the company is going to pay for it! Sure. But ask yourself, are you going to be fundamentally happier with a 9% hourly raise (I’m not counting the *already negotiated and agreed upon covid 5%), some add pay tossed your way and being treated like a borrowed mule the entire time you’re at work, or are you going to be happier keeping your work rules and forcing the company back to the table? I would rather overnight in the cities I bid for and enjoy my schedule and time at work than make a fraction more and be miserable. When I got here I felt like I could breathe again. I didn’t dread coming to work. A call from scheduling on an off day meant *good* things. Almost none of my life improvement here was linked to pay (although it’s certainly a perk), it was linked to being treated professionally. Flying the line I bid. Enjoying my days off. This TA has made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Having seen what happens to any company when their back is against the wall with staffing, I would rather fly the current book for another two years than give up an INCH on work rules, or an INCH on scope (including instructor scope). There is ZERO reason to when we have their back to the wall with the instructor shortage.

I have been treated very well by this company and I don’t mean to imply that management here is some sort of evil villain; but at the end of the day their job is to move planes and make money, not to make us happy. Many times those goals are not mutually exclusive, but during severe staffing shortages they are. Do not give them the tools to turn working here into what it’s like working at a regional.

Respectfully,

The Pilot you bought dinner for last trip.

Originally Posted by dmeg13021

I don’t know, most of the mil guys are extremely familiar with out of touch leadership looking to advance their careers that haven’t touched an airplane in decades.