Vernon Demerest

You beat me to it. PBS only honors seniority “within feasibility “. It strives to complete the “solution “ so if you happen to be below the “splat”, you might find the trip you want on someone’s line way below you and if you are slightly below the g line, you basically have no seniority as pilots anywhere below the g line bidding for a line randomly get lines or don’t get lines of flying as the system is constantly optimizing during the run to try and complete a solution that awards those above the g line lines as close as possible to bid group requests. The guy 1 number below the g line might get reserve, even with the same absences/carry-in/other non flying credit as the guy 17 numbers below him who also wants a line and has opened his/her net just as wide. Nobody can(or is willing) explain it.

ReadyRsv

You just did. The rules say what you are entitled and the computer does the rest. People below the GLine aren't awarded trips in seniority order. It's not a conspiracy, it's how the system was agreed to be run.

Dave Fitzgerald

Uhhh…..no. It's not how it was agreed to run.

ALPA wanted a PBS style system. The company contracted to the lowest bidder a couple of different times. and systems over the years. The company pays to get what they want, not to honor seniority. This PBS system in particular abrogates seniority an many ways. ALPA never agreed to this. It's one of the areas I advocated for on my contract survey.

Regularguy

Don’t forget the current PBS was inherited in the merger from CAL and the old UAL system was bid differently. I have no idea why it was chosen to survive the merger, so maybe someone has the scoop on it and can let us know.

cadetdrivr

I was told by a SSC member that there are only a handful of PBS systems on the planet that can handle airlines the size of UAL. And specifically our constraint is EWR 756 FO. The category is huge and when FAR 117, the UPA, and the mix of domestic and global flying is combined it's a nightmare for PBS. Any PBS.

Once EWR 756 FO is considered, there's only two that can do it and the other one is considered far, far worse.

So we have what we have.

Buck Rogers

You may be entirely correct. What does EWR/75/FO have for numbers? 450 in category? Delta has some pretty big categories....ATL757/FO with about 410 and MD88 with 500ish Once the program is written I'm not sure how big the category is really matters.

Point being, I really like our Delta PBS system(Navtec Navblue) and it is really flexible with the parameters for bidding. You can tell it what you want and if it can't find a solution you clear schedule start next bid group.....over and over again.....100 bid groups? No problem. A UAL buddy of mine showed my your PBS and I was appalled(in all fairness alot of it had to do with it being new to me and maybe not understanding it with a quick overview) As I understood it, you could only have 4-5 bid groups until it goes into default mode
Additionally, at Delta, you usually start a bid group telling it everything you don't want in sequential order(pairing numbers/layover city/sign in/ sign out/ legs per day/DH/min pay per day etc, etc, etc) then tell it what you want. If AFTER giving you everything you said you wanted, if you don't have a full line, it goes up your list of avoid stuff throwing that instruction out to see if it can then get you to a full line....the result being you may not have your perfect line but 3 outta 4 trips are what you wanted(seniority order of course) and then it is filled out with the "least worst" trip

Suffice it to say, (not knocking what you have cause it's not my bailiwick) but I think the vast majority of Delta pilots really like our PBS system. Once an airline union accepts PBS with the resultant 1000+ job productivity cuts.....you should fight really hard for the best system you can get.

Not trying to get into your shiznit....Just my .02 cents from a Delta perspective

If you are really curious....post a question over on the Delta side (I could be wrong) and always be cognizant that some will compare our system to "utopia" which is unachievable.....maybe a brief paragraph or two of your system as background would help(if anybody here cares enough to find out more)

Cheers

cadetdrivr

FWIW, I have used a previous version of Navtec although I'm unfamiliar with Navblue.

I think the problem was the decision was made shortly after the merger and was based on the options at the time.

baseball

So, said another way....for simplicity. It's the SOLUTION first, and SENIORITY second.

It's not a PREFERENTIAL bidding system. Well, it does allow you to enter your preferences. But, as a former CAL pilot, I've seen the number 1 Captain in a base NOT get what he wanted. He entered his preferences, but that's about it.

Very surprised the UAL MEC let this stand in the joint contract.

It should be called PBS for (Pilots Butts in Seat). Because that's really what the system is designed to do.

It is a known absence de-confliction system. That's what it does. It drives the solution to minimize staffing (reserve) pilot requirements.

I think pre PBS CAL had roughly 4400 pilots. After PBS, CAL attrited about 400 pilots and thus minimized their manpower requirements and eliminated the contractural min reserve 10% number.

Rick Muir, Jackson Martin, and Tom Stivala and Zullo did a marvelous job in selling this and pushing down the pilots throats....Look at these real men of genius today. Just look and admire.

If you get PBS'd it is what it is. Your seniority is only really guaranteed during:

Vacancy bid
Displacement bid
Furlough
Vacation bid

But, your monthly day-to-day schedule/lifestyle/quality of life/paycheck doesn't seem to matter as much as the other events mentioned above that happen on a much rare frequency.


It would be nice to get our seniority back in this next contract.

horrido27

PERFECT analysis
There should NEVER be a senior pilot on reserve and a junior pilot with a line due to 'completion mode'. I can care less about where the 'G Line' is.
For the 1st pilot below the G line to not get a line, but some pilot 5-6 numbers below him (or her) to get one is unacceptable.

I too expect some major changes to the way we bid, and to our timeline.
As of this time (6 Oct, 1400) the schedules for Dec are in the system to buy tickets. There is no reason that we will need to wait till 6 Nov to see those schedules, that we will have to wait till 14-17 for our (first look) of our December schedule and that we will need to wait till the evening of the 25th of November to really see our December schedule.
Unacceptable.

FS, FP & FtC
Motch

rightside02

Agreed , our PBS system is a total joke, it’s 2019 ... and this is what we have !?!!! . People who defend it are truly a lost cause ... I understand that it’s a complicated matter . I am not trying to undermine that part . But come on man

Sure you can get at using it and making it give you mostly what you want. But why does one have to be a code writer to do so.

Joke .