Notices

Vacancy 20-02V

Old 10-06-2019, 11:13 AM
  #171  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 662
Default

Originally Posted by horrido27 View Post
PERFECT analysis
There should NEVER be a senior pilot on reserve and a junior pilot with a line due to 'completion mode'. I can care less about where the 'G Line' is.
For the 1st pilot below the G line to not get a line, but some pilot 5-6 numbers below him (or her) to get one is unacceptable.
FS, FP & FtC
Motch
Sure it is Motch. If the pilot one below the line doesn't waive anything, but the pilot 6 below does, it's totally fair. Those lines are terrible, and in most categories the vast majority decide waiving isn't worth the line awarded.
webecheck is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:42 PM
  #172  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Default

Originally Posted by webecheck View Post
Sure it is Motch. If the pilot one below the line doesn't waive anything, but the pilot 6 below does, it's totally fair. Those lines are terrible, and in most categories the vast majority decide waiving isn't worth the line awarded.
Disagree.
First of all, even IF the first pilot below the G Line waives everything, there still exists the possibility that he/she won't get a line but the pilot below them will, just because of what's left and when these 2 pilots have some sort of absence (ie, training or vacation)

Second. Why should you have to waive anything?
Seniority should not be based on "waiving" something to get a one up with regards to line/reserve.
If it is, then it's something that we as a Pilot Group should discuss.
Not just a couple of hundred pilots who lurk the forums.

Personally, I would like to see seniority honored.
IF there is the possibility of awarding some lines below the G Line, it needs to be done in Seniority order.
IF that is not possible, then there will be more open time available and that will allow for more/better trip trading.
That would also allow for the reserve to have more choices with regards to THEIR aggressive pick-ups.

I do find it interesting that there are pilots (like yourself) who defend our PBS.
I guess that if you feel that the first pilot below the G Line not getting a line yet the 2nd pilot below the G Line getting one is "ok", there's no need to continue the conversation. We're not going to change each others opinions.
It is important for all Post Merger New Hires to understand some of the issues we have with our PBS.. especially with regards to what us Legacy pilots had before!

Always
FS, FP & FtC
Motch
horrido27 is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:52 PM
  #173  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SFO Guppy CA
Posts: 1,112
Default

Originally Posted by webecheck View Post
Sure it is Motch. If the pilot one below the line doesn't waive anything, but the pilot 6 below does, it's totally fair. Those lines are terrible, and in most categories the vast majority decide waiving isn't worth the line awarded.
I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, but getting a line when you're below the G Line is multi-faceted. You could have carry in credit, vacation, or training credit. All of which could help you or hurt you. It just depends on where the trips that are left over fall and how many there are. Obviously it also depends on whether or not pilots above the G Line choose reserve or not. Which effectively moves the G Line down by that number. Also using all, some, one, or none of the waive statements.

I have hated our PBS system from the day that I first bid here. The current PBS system is worse than what I had at Compass. It rewards your programming skills, rather than seniority. Whoever was responsible for bringing this POS system to the pilot group should be fired!!! I have many friends at Delta and while their system isn't perfect, it is much better than the POS that we have (from their accounts). I REALLY want a new system whenever we get a new contract!!!
DashTrash is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 01:11 PM
  #174  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Default

Here's a question-
(Maybe some of the experts can answer..)
Lets say the base has 100 pilots.
The G Line is set at 80
So Pilot 81 is NOT guaranteed a line...

Scenario 1-
All Pilots above the G line get lines..
Pilot 81 has vacation the first week of the month.
Pilot 82 has vacation the 2nd week of the month.
Pilot 83 has training the 2nd week of the month.

There's enough trips left after the runs that allow for a few extra lines.. but because of Pilot 81 having vacation on the first week, there aren't any trips in week 2 that would build him/her a line BUT there are a few trips in week 1 that allow Pilot 82 and 83 to get line.
Should that happen?

Scenario 2-
If 5 pilots above the G line decide to bid Reserve, would that guarantee that pilots 81-85 get lines?
Keep in mind, due to the way our Contract works with regards to Pay.. you can get a line built that would give you an MPG of 70 hrs even if there aren't enough trips to have a PTC of 70 hrs. All because of where you are in relation to the G Line.
Would it be ok if pilot 81 still didn't get a line yet (realistically) the G Line should have shifted 5?

These are both good AND important discussions to have, especially now when we're in Contract/TA season!
These are Quality of Life issues that don't cost that much (with regards to other areas) but have major benefits to the Pilot Group.

Motch
horrido27 is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 01:25 PM
  #175  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 662
Default

Originally Posted by horrido27 View Post
Disagree.
First of all, even IF the first pilot below the G Line waives everything, there still exists the possibility that he/she won't get a line but the pilot below them will, just because of what's left and when these 2 pilots have some sort of absence (ie, training or vacation)

Second. Why should you have to waive anything?
Seniority should not be based on "waiving" something to get a one up with regards to line/reserve.
If it is, then it's something that we as a Pilot Group should discuss.
Not just a couple of hundred pilots who lurk the forums.

Personally, I would like to see seniority honored.
IF there is the possibility of awarding some lines below the G Line, it needs to be done in Seniority order.
IF that is not possible, then there will be more open time available and that will allow for more/better trip trading.
That would also allow for the reserve to have more choices with regards to THEIR aggressive pick-ups.

I do find it interesting that there are pilots (like yourself) who defend our PBS.
I guess that if you feel that the first pilot below the G Line not getting a line yet the 2nd pilot below the G Line getting one is "ok", there's no need to continue the conversation. We're not going to change each others opinions.
It is important for all Post Merger New Hires to understand some of the issues we have with our PBS.. especially with regards to what us Legacy pilots had before!

Always
FS, FP & FtC
Motch
First off my friend, I don't like our current bid system. I have devoted some time to learning it because I have no options, and have thus found a way to live with it.

Secondly, to your comment about why you shouldn't have to waive anything, well you don't. You're below the line and based on our contract you are not guaranteed a line. It's simple. The solution is saying I have some set of trips I can group together and form one more line if someone wants it, but you gotta waive some contract protections. I guess your argument is I'm the first guy below the line and I'm not waiving, so all you junior pilots below me shouldn't have the scraps I don't want. Gmafb.

As for months with carry in credit, if the solution says I have a couple trips left I can hand out to someone with carry in that matches my constraints, why are you against your junior union brothers getting those? Since you have no carry in, the solution can't produce you a line. The contract allows the company to have this bidding system, and this bidding system can at least make one more person's schedule better... But you don't want that guy to have it? Come on man.

As far as leaving more trips in the pool, that would be great, but there will always be one more person who may benefit because someone above the line will bid reserve, and thus someone below will get a line. In my 4 years here I have come to realize the problem is not this pbs system.
webecheck is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 01:28 PM
  #176  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
Default

deja vu

Requested Award prevents solution completion

I guess I'm a lost cause. I think the interface could be much better, and agree about the lack of seniority below the G line, but PBS is 100 times better than line bidding.

I've never heard one logical point about why line bidding would be better. Not a single one. But I'm always open to hearing one. What was great? Vacation touch isn't likely coming back, but if it is, that could theoretically be integrated into the next contract irrespective of PBS/line bidding. I've been told line bidding was better because people loved flying with the same guy for a month (no thanks, but if you like that, then bid it with PBS). I've been told it was great because everyone got 4 day trip (no thanks, but if you like that, then bid it with PBS). What is one thing even moderately better with line bidding that you can't get with PBS?

Every gripe about "I didn't get this pairing one time because PBS sucks..." I've ever heard is nothing compared to not getting most or any individual pairings you might have wanted in a line system. The lines you don't want in your schedule are some of the lines someone senior to you wanted, but didn't get. Now it's not because a few were reserved for LCA trips, 10% trading flow, and completion, but because the schedules are built without taking anyone's individual preference into account. I understand some people are averse to technology, and putting their desires into the bidding system might be challenging for those people, but we're talking about selecting "Avoid flying 0200-0400 local base time" or "award layover in HNL" into a system, not programming in HTML.
okieskies99 is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 02:02 PM
  #177  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Dave Fitzgerald's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 777
Posts: 2,155
Default

Line bidding with an effective trip trading system was not bad. I'd take that over our current PBS system with no realistic possibility of trip trades.
Dave Fitzgerald is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 02:55 PM
  #178  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,083
Default

Originally Posted by okieskies99 View Post
I've never heard one logical point about why line bidding would be better.
Because trips affected by training and vacation are dropped into the open time pool, which enables the ability to trade not just trips, but days, which doesn’t exist in my BES. Because of that, PBS minimizes staffing, which is why the airlines want it. I spent close to a decade bidding “paper lines” and don’t pine for them because: A) They’re not coming back and B) There are, as you note, some advantages to PBS, but there were plenty of good things about bidding for preconstructed lines.
XHooker is offline  
Old 10-06-2019, 03:10 PM
  #179  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Sep 2019
Posts: 300
Default

Originally Posted by DashTrash View Post
I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, but getting a line when you're below the G Line is multi-faceted. You could have carry in credit, vacation, or training credit. All of which could help you or hurt you. It just depends on where the trips that are left over fall and how many there are. Obviously it also depends on whether or not pilots above the G Line choose reserve or not. Which effectively moves the G Line down by that number. Also using all, some, one, or none of the waive statements.

I have hated our PBS system from the day that I first bid here. The current PBS system is worse than what I had at Compass. It rewards your programming skills, rather than seniority. Whoever was responsible for bringing this POS system to the pilot group should be fired!!! I have many friends at Delta and while their system isn't perfect, it is much better than the POS that we have (from their accounts). I REALLY want a new system whenever we get a new contract!!!
While I completely agree with you, see a few posts above where the individuals who are responsible are actually named. All of them currently have or have had management positions (one is currently flying the line)
Vernon Demerest is offline  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:42 AM
  #180  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Default

Originally Posted by webecheck View Post

.... to your comment about why you shouldn't have to waive anything, well you don't. You're below the line and based on our contract you are not guaranteed a line. It's simple. The solution is saying I have some set of trips I can group together and form one more line if someone wants it, but you gotta waive some contract protections. I guess your argument is I'm the first guy below the line and I'm not waiving, so all you junior pilots below me shouldn't have the scraps I don't want. Gmafb.
The bold line is exactly the issue.
IF you are below the G Line, you are not guaranteed a line.
But IF there is enough flying left to make a line, it needs to go via Seniority. If it can't honor seniority, then put it in open time.
As someone who waives on a regular basis (as I live in base and am fine with 1 day off between workblocks), I understand that waiving is an individual choice that is offered by the contract. But just because someone does or doesn't waive, it shouldn't trump (ouch) seniority.
As you mentioned.. its part of our Contract. So let's discuss the merits of our contract with regards to how our PBS system is utilized.



Originally Posted by webecheck View Post
As for months with carry in credit, if the solution says I have a couple trips left I can hand out to someone with carry in that matches my constraints, why are you against your junior union brothers getting those? Since you have no carry in, the solution can't produce you a line. The contract allows the company to have this bidding system, and this bidding system can at least make one more person's schedule better... But you don't want that guy to have it? Come on man.
Again, it's not about junior "union" brothers (and sisters) getting a line. It's about honoring seniority.
That 'junior' pilot should understand that there is something wrong with our system when someone senior to him/her didn't get a line while they did.. all because of 'constraint/completion mode'.
Guess you are fine with someone below you getting a line while you get reserve. I am not.
If the system couldn't build me (or you) a line with the remaining trips there are two options-
1) Give us all the trips that DO fit in our schedule and pay us MPG.
B) [This is thinking outside of the box] Give us all the trips that DO fit in our schedule and then put a few Res Days in where needed to 'make' a legal line.

If it doesn't want to do that, then throw all those trips into open time. Helps with Seniority Trip Trading (more trips for trading) and the trips will still be covered as we would actually have a handful more reserve.
Keep in mind, the reserve who didn't get a line now will still be able to do aggressive pickup the day prior..


Originally Posted by webecheck View Post
As far as leaving more trips in the pool, that would be great, but there will always be one more person who may benefit because someone above the line will bid reserve, and thus someone below will get a line. In my 4 years here I have come to realize the problem is not this pbs system.
Of course there will be someone who benefits from having a line built. That person should be the most senior person below the G Line.
Honor Seniority.

I am mid pack in my BES. I have learned how to bid by learning from my past mistakes. That being said, knowing your 'bidding power' is key.
But the problem IS this PBS system and how we are awarded our lines.
When a junior person gets something a senior person requested.. but wasn't awarded because that would have prevented the junior person from getting a line, there is an issue.
This "constraint" isn't just a reserve/lineholder issue.. it affects everyone.

We are coming to 2 years of contract negotiations. Things will most likely start getting worse sometime next year. There are (probably) 9000 pilots who will not see a pay raise next year.
You (probably) will since you mentioned that you've been here 5 years (I believe).. you will see a longevity pay raise in 2020. Along with every other Post Merger New Hire.
Seniority is what the airline industry is all about.
PBS does not (always) honor seniority.
That is an issue to be discussed and fixed.

FS, FP & FtC
Always
Motch
horrido27 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
sarahswhere
United
64
05-20-2015 12:58 PM
steve0617
United
1
10-03-2014 01:28 PM
C-17 Driver
United
47
07-18-2014 07:08 PM
LeeMat
United
214
02-06-2013 07:04 PM
DiamondZ
Cargo
26
08-03-2007 01:18 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices