Originally Posted by hummingbear

You’re either equating your comfort with freedom or someone else’s freedom with comfort- you can’t have it both ways. There is no truly free society- we all give up some amount of personal freedom for the functioning of a healthy & safe community. (Social Contract Theory.) Each of our personal freedoms exist only to the extent they don’t place undue burden on those around us or society at large. Yes, there’s a greater discussion to be had on this specific point, but in general, your perception of being a free actor is not the ultimate factor in how our conflicting interests are balanced.

Originally Posted by at6d

Why is congress exempt from the mandate?

What about the Equal Protection clause?

So a company with 100 employees or more = needs vax but a company with 99 doesn’t?

Who comes up with this stuff?

Originally Posted by dogpilot

With regards to COVID and the necessity to force vaccinations, the evidence isn’t definitive enough to justify loss of freedom

Originally Posted by at6d

Why is congress exempt from the mandate?

What about the Equal Protection clause?

So a company with 100 employees or more = needs vax but a company with 99 doesn’t?

Who comes up with this stuff?

Originally Posted by Thedude86

I totally get what you’re saying. I think the main issue though is what these mandates lead to. If it was as simple as public safety I could agree with you. The goalposts have been moved so many times over the last year and a half that I can’t keep count. If these mandates go through I’m relatively certain the goalposts will be moved another 5-10 times before covid is in the rear view mirror even if we become the most vaccinated country on earth. Next year you’ll have the 4th booster shot people telling the 3rd boosters we can’t get back to normal until they stop killing people.

2 years ago, everyone both right and left would have thought such restrictions would only happen in North Korea or China. Now we have enough people that think, “yea, this is a good idea.” Again, this isn’t over. The goalposts will continue to move no matter how many people get vaccinated.

I also don’t think the “broad census” is as clear as you think it is. There are tons of doctors that like the vaccines, but don’t think they should be mandated. A lot of them don’t even think most people under 60 should get the shot unless they’re vulnerable including one of the earliest creators of mRNA vaccines. Even on CNN, Dr. Fauci was asked why people with natural immunity from previous infections need to get a vaccine. His answer was, “that’s an interesting question. I don’t really have a good answer for you”.

This is clearly not based on science. If it was, previous infections wouldn’t need the vaccine as Dr. Fauci indirectly alludes to. Kids wouldnt be wearing masks in school like they’re not wearing them in almost every other country in the world. My guess is either Joey Bribes isn’t actually looking at the science, or he knows the drug companies will lose out on millions of people that had previous infections, and millions of kids that will soon be eligible in the coming months. All three are probably true. Not to mention Congress and their staff are exempt from the mandates.

Originally Posted by fadec

​​​​​​You're free to run for congress or work for a 99 employee company. Equal protection is preserved. We want equal opportunity, not equal outcome.

Originally Posted by hummingbear

=12ptYou’re kind of jumping around a lot.Consensus on the safety & effectiveness of the vaccines is very widespread. Dissension on that point within the mainstream medical &/or scientific community is very much a minority opinion. Scientific consensus on mandates is less broad because it’s less a scientific question than a social one- how much force do we have the right to impose on people in the interest of safety? In other words, scientists largely agree that vaccine mandates would save lives- whether or not they are ethical is not their field to speak to.

For my part, I do have my own concerns over large sweeping government mandates; particularly anything that enlarges the authority of the presidency as you’ve alluded to. I also think a lot of this outrage overlooks the fact that there is a lot of precedent in our country both present & past for vaccine mandates. Indeed, many of the loudest voices against the mandates have willingly subjected themselves & their families to multiple mandatory vaccinations in the past. The only difference was that they weren’t being worked into a politically motivated frenzy at that particular time.

Lastly, I totally understand the emotional fatigue with this prolonged pandemic, and the perception of moving goalposts. However, as our understanding of the virus evolves- and the virus itself mutates- it should be understood and even expected that our approach to the problem will also change over time. It would be incredibly stupid to still be running the playbook from March ‘21; even if you personally prefer it. The fact that our strategy has changed since the pandemic’s onset is not in & of itself proof that what we are doing now is wrong.

Originally Posted by Thedude86

The problem isn’t that the goalposts get moved from positive to negative then back to positive. I would be more understanding if that were the case. The goalposts keep getting moved in one direction and one direction only even as more people get vaccinated. Just a few months ago Joey Bribes and Dr. Fauci both said vaccine mandates would never happen. 15 days to slow the spread has moved numerous times to now include get a vaccine or lose your job, and on the verge of you just can’t interact with normal society. It’s already happening in certain areas in Australia.

Again, this has nothing to do with safety or science. Nothing to do with science with evidence that I mentioned before. And as far as safety goes… If Joey Bribes was so worried about everyone’s safety… why isn’t he allowing other countries that desperately need vaccines to have the recipe when he is legally allowed to do so. Africa is less than 2% vaccinated. Why doesn’t he help African nations that need the vaccines more than anybody else if he was so worried about safety? Even a former Bernie Sanders senior advisor is calling him out….

https://youtu.be/l1zcqd7rE9Y
News segment from The Hill from 3 days ago. The contract with Moderna shows that Joey Bribes has total freedom to share their recipe with the rest of the world…. My guess is another “10% for the big guy.” Yep, he really cares about everyone’s safety.

Originally Posted by Thedude86

The problem isn’t that the goalposts get moved from positive to negative then back to positive. I would be more understanding if that were the case. The goalposts keep getting moved in one direction and one direction only even as more people get vaccinated. Just a few months ago Joey Bribes and Dr. Fauci both said vaccine mandates would never happen. 15 days to slow the spread has moved numerous times to now include get a vaccine or lose your job, and on the verge of you just can’t interact with normal society. It’s already happening in certain areas in Australia.

Again, this has nothing to do with safety or science. Nothing to do with science with evidence that I mentioned before. And as far as safety goes… If Joey Bribes was so worried about everyone’s safety… why isn’t he allowing other countries that desperately need vaccines to have the recipe when he is legally allowed to do so. Africa is less than 2% vaccinated. Why doesn’t he help African nations that need the vaccines more than anybody else if he was so worried about safety? Even a former Bernie Sanders senior advisor is calling him out….

https://youtu.be/l1zcqd7rE9Y
News segment from The Hill from 3 days ago. The contract with Moderna shows that Joey Bribes has total freedom to share their recipe with the rest of the world…. My guess is another “10% for the big guy.” Yep, he really cares about everyone’s safety.