Lurker here. Wondering what you mean, says "enough". what? Working with the UA MEC, 3 way negotiations, request for release...

 

I'll bite.

If (tomorrow), the CAL MEC decided to side with the UAL Pilots (to show Unity..), they will also have some explaining to do to their membership.
For months we've been hearing that some progress has been made with regards to negotiations.
We have also been told that Jay P and Jay H have been speaking together often.
If the above was true.. how did Jay P not now this was coming and has he been lying to us all this time?!

Also, if we do "side" with the UAL MEC, even after they blindsided us.. what will be the response from the NMB? And the company?
Because.. once we side with the UAL MEC and request a timeline for release, if it ****es off the NMB and the Company, what have we won?

Now.. if we do not side with the UAL MEC because-
A) we were blindsided by this.
2) we had a strategy in place and this was not part of it.
III) we realize that by doing so, we hurt the CAL Pilots chances of a contract anytime soon and therefore they are not willing to do that..

Then were are we?!

Sorry, but since learning more info about how this went down, and after reading the latest from your MEC Chair, I feel that the UAL side has already decided to go it alone.

Building off of our earlier communications this week about the potential of seeking an April 30 release in response to Management's continued efforts put the negotiations in a holding pattern, I wanted to update you on some specific steps we have taken.

In particular, I want you to know that we have assembled the most highly-qualified campaign team to bolster our strategic approach and complement our ability to execute our long-term game plan.

Leading the effort is Jon Yarowksy, a partner at Patton Boggs in Washington, DC who is a former senior White House advisor to President Clinton, former General Counsel to the House Judiciary Committee (where he provided advice Members of Congress and Leadership) and very close to both the Obama White House and key players on the Hill (he was also a tailback for UCLA in the mid-seventies).

Working with Jon on the communications side is Chris Lehane and Mark Fabiani of Fabiani & Lehane. Mark and Chris are both former Clinton White House advisors, served as aides to Vice President Al Gore and are well-known Democratic operatives who have helped run various presidential, gubernatorial and senatorial campaigns.

Working with them, we have developed a comprehensive campaign to fight for all United pilots that will be called “The Unfriendly Skies."

Jon, Mark and Chris all worked together in the Clinton White House and have collaborated on successful efforts over the years. They are aggressive and proactive - and have a very simple philosophy: Play to Win.

“The Unfriendly Skies" campaign, which was discussed in a recent labor meeting in Chicago, is scheduled to be launched in conjunction with the summer travel season and will focus on the company's off-shoring of flights and out-sourcing of pilot jobs.

The campaign is expected to focus on issues such as the compromised safety for passengers and loss of jobs for America’s pilots. Additionally, we intend to have a specific social media effort designed to pro-actively reach out to consumers in order to minimize any possible disruption in their summer travel plans.

Seems as the UAL MEC has already made plans to do it alone.. no mention of CAL Staffing issues, or the fact that CAL Pilots have been in negotiations longer than UAL.

Therefore, if the CAL Side feels that they have no other option but to also go it alone- oh well.

The only real chance we have of this working out ok is if ALPA National steps up to the plate and pulls everyone in for a smackdown, no holds barred discussion and works this out.

But basically, I think we may be screwed~

Motch

 

Motch,
I'd agree with most if not all of your answer. The two MECs appear to have little in common, a different objective and time line.
Having flown for both sides, find it sad that the two could not work together from the beginning. I believe they will part ways to the detriment of both pilot groups. Their actions have been worse than congress, at least congress is bought and paid for by special interests.

 

I'll bite.
Are the CAL pilots happy with the progress made so far? It's only been 4 or 5 years right? 'Some Progress' is NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

Hard to tell. If you believe what he says then you should ask him.

By 'siding' with the UAL MEC, you are furthering your own cause! Assuming of course that your cause is a JCBA... My guess is the response will be a very serious discussion between UCH, CAL ALPA, UAL ALPA, and the Mediator (possibly additional NMB reps?) to find a way to get this negotiation finished. It should be crystal clear to all of us that UCH is not interested in completing the JCBA any time soon.

Choosing not to 'side' with the UAL MEC because they were blindsided would be foolish and shortsighted. What's important here? Ego or getting a JCBA? If your leadership had an alternate strategy, did they share the details with the UAL MEC? The actions and words from JP and your MEC over the past two years paint a pretty good picture of a strategy -- a strategy that advances the interests of CAL pilots at the expense of UAL pilots! Pardon me for not supporting 'your' strategy.

Sitting at a table with the major players figuring out how to get a JCBA poste haste.

You can lead a horse to water.... Did you really expect the UAL pilots (MEC and MC) to continue being held hostage by your leadership? Why on earth would we do that?? IMO, we waited to long to call everyone out. We tried to TWO YEARS to work with your MEC and MC, to no avail. It's about damn time we push a strategy that's good for ALL UAL (L-UAL and L-CAL) pilots.

Why would the UAL MC comment on CAL pilot issues right now? IMO that would be crossing a line by acting as if he represents them, while the CAL MEC is preparing to meet. I would see that as blatantly undermining the CAL MC. There is plenty of time to get together and release joint messages.

That would be a HUGE mistake. Your leadership needs to put ego aside and DO THE RIGHT THING.

That should have happened after JP broke ranks with the UAL MC and negotiated a CAL specific monetary improvement to your CBA. I sent a couple of very detailed emails to Moak that generated some discussion with him. At the end of the day, it appears that he didn't do squat. I specifically warned him about the damage to the unity and trust between the pilot groups that would result if JPs actions went unaddressed. Now the chickens are home to roost. That being said, I would welcome that kind of discussion so long as it results in the unity of effort and action that has been lacking from the CAL leadership.

Based on the previous actions of your ALPA leadership, you have good reason to feel that way. That's the way I've been feeling for quite some time.

I'm still an optimist and believe that your leadership will do the right thing and join this campaign. We have a LOT riding on it.

 

No, we are not happy. As a matter of fact, at some local LEC meetings a request to be released was asked about and discussed.. but the reason for not doing it yet was "we are in Joint talks... but there will come a time to do it", and "it's no longer us vs management, it's now us and The UAL MEC vs management"..
I have notes from LEC meetings where JP states that our NC and your NC are working together well, and I had no reason not to believe that.. until now.
And mind you, our CBA has been amendable longer than yours has. We also had a Contract proposal on the table (C08 Proposal). Pilots have been asking "when would we pull that trigger".. the answer was, now that we are in Joint Negoiations, it would have to be done together.
Your guy did not do it "together".


I will ask Jay P. And there in lies the problem. If/when he tells the CAL Pilots he was blindsided by your guy(s).. then what?
We've (CAL Pilots) have already heard that our Jay (P) got word of your move as he was getting on a plane. Nice.



You are assuming that the NMB will take the singular actions of your MEC in a positive way. Gutsy move.
I think just the opposite.. and again, your MEC decided to make a bold move, publicly.. and has now pushed the CAL MEC into a corner. Is that what you want?
Again, my Union and my NC along with all the CAL (and UAL) pilots want a JCBA yesterday.. but we (on the CAL Side) also want a 'right' JCBA, not a 'now' JCBA.


Nope, I disagree.. it's not about Ego-
It's about getting a JCBA and if that is not possible, just getting a new CBA for the CAL Pilots.
It was your side that decided to go and post the message to it's pilots that it's gonna pull the Release Trigger, and to do it singularly and not Jointly.
You talk about the CAL Side "painting a pretty good strategy over the past two years".. how about the UAL strategy.
It was your guys who demanded items in the "New" TPA that our MEC knew wouldn't fly.. you bluffed with a pair of two's and lost.

Mind you, I was not happy about the ProShar deal with regards to giving up the 76-2 Grievance... but I'll bet that, that didn't **** off the MNB or hurt our Joint Negotiations.. cause after that happened, we were still meeting and making some (slow) progress.



They have been doing that for some time.. except for a few weeks ago when one of the company's official didn't show up. It's my understanding that the NMB was AGAIN not happy with something the company did...
Now you will have to guess what the NMB thinks of the Labor side of the talks.. or if the NMB decides to look at the two sides of Labor separately.



Please explain "Hostage".. that's a pretty big word.
Again, we have had comm stating that our NC and your NC have been working together.. and Jay P has also stated that he and your Jay had open lines of communication. Guess the "lines" must have gotten crossed last week?!
oh- and what do you mean about 'and MC'? Did you mistype? Didn't know there were any issues between our Merger Committee's.. since there's not alot for them to do besides trade lists and wait for a JCBA. Only then will their real work begin when they get ready to present their arguments to the Arbitrator.

Mind you.. if we have held "you" hostage, please explain all the joint things we HAVE done together?! Rally's, Picketing Events, CEO Meetings, Family Awareness..


You are right. Why would the UAL Merger Committee comment on CAL issues? Then again, why wouldn't Jay H include ALL the issues that are affecting United Airlines? Jay P has addressed overseas outsourcing (Air Lingus style issues), SOC timelines and other points that affected us both.
Again, it's the difference between "Joint" and "Stand alone".

I agree that your guy and your MEC represents your Pilots, just like ours represent the CAL Pilots. But this week, your guy has crossed over a line in trying to represent your pilots by publicly calling out the Company and stating the desire to be released.. L-UAL Pilots being released..
Do you really think that the NMB would EVER allowed one side to be released and not the other?



Your opinion of "DO THE RIGHT THING"-
Not sure if you ever saw the movie (Spike Lee, 80'sish).. pretty good analogy. Every side thought THEY were doing the right thing, in the end- everyone lost.
So in the end, if (when) it comes down to it.. it will revert back to how this new mess started (this week). Each side doing what they thought was best for THEIR Pilots. Your guy played his hand (again.. like with the last TPA extension) and now our guy will play his.
If my Union feels that this move hurts us moving forward, that the NMb is now gonna
1) look bad on the labor side
For not waiting till we were at an impasse before requesting "Release"
For not going through proper channels... using ALPA National
For not including the other side of the Negotiation Team, the CAL Side.
B) Side with the company and let this drag out longer..

Then they have no choice but to not support this move by your MEC.
If it ends up with a breakdown in talks, and a separate CBA on the CAL Side, so be it.

Again.. we were in JOINT Talks until Monday when your MEC put out a public message stating they were trying to put a timeline out there otherwise they wanted to have the UNITED Pilots released. All "Jointness" went out the window with regards to a JCBA at that point [in my opinion].


I agree that the ProShare was a bad move as far as Unity is concerned.. and I agree that ALPA National should have stepped in a sat the 2 MEC's down. Not sure if that did or didn't happen.
That being said.. it seems that your argument is that since we (UAL Pilot) perceive a wrong doing by the CAL MEC, we can do our own thing with regards to drawing a line in the sand. CAL MEC, the Company and the NMB be damned!
Mind you, Jay P didn't "break ranks" with you guys concerning ProShare. He told you that your modification of the TPA wouldn't pass, and that he was obligated to try and secure ProShare for our guys. Again- I disagree with the way we got it. But it wasn't a "Breaking ranks"... but since you brought up that term, it seems that your MEC Chair has Broken Ranks with the CAL MEC & Pilots in demanding a release of only the United Pilots on a certain date.

Again, had your MEC either tried to meet with ours last week.. or better yet, included ALPA National- and then stated;
We are going to put out this message to our pilots next week. You can join us or not.. your call. That would be one thing.
My rep has informed me that the MEC was blindsided by this. I have also now heard from numerous sources that Jay P get word of this Release Ultimatum (via email or text...) just as he was boarding an aircraft. And that he requested YOUR GUY (Jay H) not send the message out till they could talk.. after he landed.
Your guy (supposedly) didn't do that. Once Jay P was on the ground (I believe in LAX, for the local council meeting) the message had already been sent.
{Does your guy attend all your Local Council Meetings? And if so.. has the request to be released been argued to him by the line pilots?}

There really isn't any way you're gonna spin that and say that it is ok to not speak with my MEC Chair concerning something SO important while still working together towards a Joint Contract. This was pure politics and grand standing.
Explain to me how waiting 3-4 hours, or even 24hrs would have been worse?!


Well, I can say the same about your leadership. I have stated before.. there is alot of blame to go around. The problem now is, have we crossed over a bridge that leads to separate contracts?
Mind you, your leadership is some of the same that agreed to the first TPA that (it seems) many UAL Pilots had issues with.. and then tried to modify the extension to the point that it was bound to fail.. and then it did.
Your MEC and Union and Pilot group seems to have as many problems as ours, and others. No pilot group (except maybe SWA) is perfect or without issues.

Again, "...will do the right thing and join this campaign."
Your opinion. We should not be FORCED to join 'this campaign".. this should have been discussed before it happened.
And since your MEC has a team of high priced Lawyers and Advisers, it seems as if you were working on this "campaign" for a while. I will be asking my MEC and SPSC if they knew about this campaign

And you are right, we have a LOT riding on this.. you forgot one word. ALL. We ALL have a lot riding on it.
And if my Union thinks that your Union no longer feels like working together, or if ALPA National agrees that (for whatever reason) the two Unions can no longer work together- I will be fine with what my Union decides.

Always
Motch

Fly Safe, Fly Professionally & Fly The Contract~

 

Motch

First your post is too long.
Second you and many others have so missed the issue I would like to scream.

Now all the talk about jnc working together and things going well or not is just rhetoric. The issue is why would JH say he was going to ask for a release. The simple answer is because UCH is negotiating in bad faith. How you may ask? Look at the last report about making progress and then pulling back to pOsitions almost two years old. When in mediation that is demonstrating bad faith bargaining.

Additionally the very fact you have been amendable longer would also be a contributory factor. For UCH boys to not show progress is unacceptable at this point and it's time to ask the mediator to release and start the count to self- help.

Quit all your talk about direction and such because JH had rightfully said we need to move on.

 

I just saw on the US/AA proposal, they want ~82 seats and less for the regionals. I don't know the fine print language at this time.

This is not a good thing. I think the majority of AA pilots will let scope slide in order to keep their pay. I repeat, this is not good.

 

horrido27 with respect to your comment:

"Nope, I disagree.. it's not about Ego-
It's about getting a JCBA and if that is not possible, just getting a new CBA for the CAL Pilots."

This will NEVER happen. At least not unless you are willing to accept whatever terms UCH is willing to offer. But if that were true then you all would have had a CBA in place years ago. This also allows UCH to whipsaw us off each other ad infinitium into the future.

So unless we are happy working under our current respective contracts for the foreseeable future, a la USAir, then we all need to come to grip with the immutable fact that we have all "landed in the new world and Cortez burned the ships."

As a L-UAL guy I'm not particularly happy with how the last two years have played out but this merger will never be unwound. We are stuck with each other and there is only one way forward and no way to go back. With all due respect to your legacy and history there are no CAL pilots anymore, only UNITED pilots. The die is cast and we all need to move forward for the mutual benefit of every pilot on the property. Until then, we've given management all they need.

 

I love this discussion. It is a good one.

Now, lets discuss something a bit different.

In the company's recent press release, for the first time you guys saw a number and saw it related to another carrier.

You saw UCH mention 2 things; 20% and Delta Pay rates

Why is that?

Could it be that the company has access to all but 2 of CAL MEC's historical polling data?

UCH already knows how to get to 50% plus one. Remember. They have Jackson Martin, Rick Muir, Tom Stivala, and most recently Dave Zullo, and they stole them from the CAL MEC Negotiating Team. They probably have Dave Earnst in their back-pocket. Remember he did such an amazing job as the R/I Chair, and as our former MEC MC that we brought him back and put him in that position again? This is like digging up ABBA to come and sing a bunch of 70's bombs just so we can poke ice-picks in our ears purely for the sake of cruel and unusual punnishment. Which ALPA rep was it that dropped a dime on the QDDRO pilots and got them all fired? Which ALPA rep was it that cost ALPA thousands of dollars in legal defense work and grievances for these piltos only to see every single one of these pilots re-instated? Which ALPA rep was it that was inept and impotent to enforce the "feel good" letter form Kellner for our A fund? Which ALPA rep was it that ignored all of the pilots who were out on LTD, MLLV, and other forms of absence and refused to help them get back their proper contributions into the A fund, B fund, and 401K?

NEWSFLASH: UCH Management is using all of our polling data, and the only reliable source of POS 02 negotiating notes and records against us.

FURTHER NEWS FLASH: Dave Earnst should not be involved in the R/I process at all. He is a double agent............always has been.

 

This is all about going after the 90-92 seat market. This merger is all about scope. That is it, pure and simple.

Next CBA, AA and DAL will both go after bigger planes for regionals.

The next one after that, those guys will go after the B-757 and so on.

We'll be chasing our tales for the next 30-50 years. This entire industry has alredy slid back 20 to 25 years in terms of pay, benefits, and quality of life.

This profession sucks, and we have management and their outsorucing schemes to thank for it. I am so ready to retire. Screw it. Time for my blue walmart greeter vest.