Scope and the JCBA
08-14-2011, 07:18 PM
#131
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by dosbo
This is why scope should be 100%. If it is a flight on a UniCon ticket or the aircraft is painted in UniCon colors then the pilots must be on the UniCon pilot list, PERIOD.
Each airline should only be allowed one certificate to operate with thier own paint job and single pilot list by FAR. I know pipe dream. That way if passengers are flying on subcontracted work they will notice the different paint and maybe ask questions. Like, "If I paid for a Continental aircraft and experienced crew, why am I flying on JOE BOB'S Airservice/Flight school?"
Each airline should only be allowed one certificate to operate with thier own paint job and single pilot list by FAR. I know pipe dream. That way if passengers are flying on subcontracted work they will notice the different paint and maybe ask questions. Like, "If I paid for a Continental aircraft and experienced crew, why am I flying on JOE BOB'S Airservice/Flight school?"
No outsourced aircraft should be allowed to have a paint scheme or name that in any way resembles mainline.
It would be the most intriguing way to fight scope. It's the last thing either UCAL or DAL ever wants to have happen and we can think of all of the reasons why.
It's simple and brilliant on so many ways.
You guys have at least the CAL scope stuff to go on, we don't. We're asking to get rid of contracts on the 70-76 seaters and let the 50 seaters eat themselves. Whether we succeed or not, I think at a minimum the paint scheme and name rule should be in there. No more Delta Connection on our side. Just ASA, Comair, etc.
Let the PR issues hopefully drive the rest.
08-14-2011, 07:21 PM
#132
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Speaking of scope, I have a question for CAL and UAL pilots. There are quite a few of us who feel uneasy about ALPA National's and therein DALPA's impartiality when it comes to scope demands of DAL pilots weighed against the good of everyone including the multiple Delta Connection ALPA carriers.
With the talk of unity in the ALPA President's message and the fact UCAL's ALPA stated objective of reclaiming scope, do you guys feel like you're getting support, in the name of unity, for such a cause from DALPA and ALPA as well as DAL pilots?
.
With the talk of unity in the ALPA President's message and the fact UCAL's ALPA stated objective of reclaiming scope, do you guys feel like you're getting support, in the name of unity, for such a cause from DALPA and ALPA as well as DAL pilots?
.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 08-14-2011 at 07:51 PM. Reason: to put a period so the last edited isn't right under my post.
08-14-2011, 07:49 PM
#133
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
coex guys and friends having to deal with the scope yourself line of thinking... you're right to laugh. you can't scope yourself. if you did, you'd be out of a job and replaced by RAH or Skywest or somebody. Meanwhile the majors will continue to favor pilots with thousands and thousands of hours of Part 121 Jet PIC and your stand on principle will mean you won't get a job there either. Unless the scope yourself crowd convinces recruiting not to hire regional pilots then regional pilots will continue to have the resume airlines want.
As a former coex guy I think I've seen this thinking in the worst ways imaginable when I was there. For some of those guys I think it literally was their hope they could fight for pay raises and regionals would ensure that for nothing in return they'd ask to be fired or something.
The key point is that Delta Connection pilots can't scope Delta pilots. Coex/XJT can't scope CAL. But DAL can scope DCI and CAL and scope Coex.
So at Delta it is our responsibility to fight for our own scope and there are a ton of us that want to, there are a ton of senior pilots who know if a 50 seater can kill a 732 then a E-Jet surely can kill the same if not bigger. People are willing to make this fight.
And I promise you I'll fight the scope yourself crowd but, remember, there are a lot of lifers and squatters at Coex and DCI and so on that need to come to terms with the fact that when we say scope we mean their flying and we want it back and that means they'll lose it. They're not going to like that but in the end it's my hope that bringing the flying here will result in mass hiring instead of prolonged times at regionals.
As a former coex guy I think I've seen this thinking in the worst ways imaginable when I was there. For some of those guys I think it literally was their hope they could fight for pay raises and regionals would ensure that for nothing in return they'd ask to be fired or something.
The key point is that Delta Connection pilots can't scope Delta pilots. Coex/XJT can't scope CAL. But DAL can scope DCI and CAL and scope Coex.
So at Delta it is our responsibility to fight for our own scope and there are a ton of us that want to, there are a ton of senior pilots who know if a 50 seater can kill a 732 then a E-Jet surely can kill the same if not bigger. People are willing to make this fight.
And I promise you I'll fight the scope yourself crowd but, remember, there are a lot of lifers and squatters at Coex and DCI and so on that need to come to terms with the fact that when we say scope we mean their flying and we want it back and that means they'll lose it. They're not going to like that but in the end it's my hope that bringing the flying here will result in mass hiring instead of prolonged times at regionals.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 08-15-2011 at 02:49 AM.
08-14-2011, 08:06 PM
#134
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by unitedflyier
Well I did get hired by a legacy and it was not all it was cracked up to be. 2 furloughs always on the bottom of seniority on reserve. Never had a weekend Christmas Thanksgiving, New Year mothers day, father day off. All trips non commutable start at before 6.30am finish after 10pm some after midnight. Never made more than $74k a year even working 95 hours a month. 11-12 day off a month. No trip trading. Vacation paid at 2.8 hours.
My advice if you want more money and a better schedule go find another career. It's not going to get any better. The general public wants cheap travel. They don't care about your 15 year old car, living on food stamps, not being able to send your kids to college, crashpads or even worse living in flight ops.
Whats done is done we can't turn the clock back. The government doesn't have the will to change anything. Bringing back regulation or ending the railway labor act it not an election winner. Corp America has you by the short and curlys, they have more lobbyists, that have more cash and friends in high places.
My advice for anyone that loves aviation find a job that pays very well and buy your own airplane and fly for fun. Out sourcing will continue.
My advice if you want more money and a better schedule go find another career. It's not going to get any better. The general public wants cheap travel. They don't care about your 15 year old car, living on food stamps, not being able to send your kids to college, crashpads or even worse living in flight ops.
Whats done is done we can't turn the clock back. The government doesn't have the will to change anything. Bringing back regulation or ending the railway labor act it not an election winner. Corp America has you by the short and curlys, they have more lobbyists, that have more cash and friends in high places.
My advice for anyone that loves aviation find a job that pays very well and buy your own airplane and fly for fun. Out sourcing will continue.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/trav...air-ranch.html
That said, outsourcing will end.
Eventually unions that push for it will either be ousted or have all of their TA's voted down. Companies who believe in it will continue to lose lots of money on it. Look no further than Comair which DAL spent billions buying, billions improving and billions liquidating. Look no further than the realization that when you outsource you're feeding your competition, see RAH. Look no further than SWA, who has done very fine without any and is our new welcomed guest in ATL due to their W2s for their Captains and FO's being higher than our 747/777 equivalents and no outsourcing.
Yeah, it will end and first up to bat I believe will be the pilots of UAL and CAL, if not them, hopefully us.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 08-15-2011 at 02:22 AM.
08-15-2011, 11:32 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Aeronca Champ
Posts: 120
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
I agree, you should make a ton of money and fly for fun. That's a no brainer. Got to fly in a P51 owned by this guy who got that same fly for fun not for work advice:
The Leeward Air Ranch - Pilot Journal | PlaneAndPilotMag.com
That said, outsourcing will end.
Eventually unions that push for it will either be ousted or have all of their TA's voted down. Companies who believe in it will continue to lose lots of money on it. Look no further than Comair which DAL spent billions buying, billions improving and billions liquidating. Look no further than the realization that when you outsource you're feeding your competition, see RAH. Look no further than SWA, who has done very fine without any and is our new welcomed guest in ATL due to their W2s for their Captains and FO's being higher than our 747/777 equivalents and no outsourcing.
Yeah, it will end and first up to bat I believe will be the pilots of UAL and CAL, if not them, hopefully us.
The Leeward Air Ranch - Pilot Journal | PlaneAndPilotMag.com
That said, outsourcing will end.
Eventually unions that push for it will either be ousted or have all of their TA's voted down. Companies who believe in it will continue to lose lots of money on it. Look no further than Comair which DAL spent billions buying, billions improving and billions liquidating. Look no further than the realization that when you outsource you're feeding your competition, see RAH. Look no further than SWA, who has done very fine without any and is our new welcomed guest in ATL due to their W2s for their Captains and FO's being higher than our 747/777 equivalents and no outsourcing.
Yeah, it will end and first up to bat I believe will be the pilots of UAL and CAL, if not them, hopefully us.
08-15-2011, 03:41 PM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Left - Dodge Caravan
Posts: 357
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
... I think at a minimum the paint scheme and name rule should be in there. No more Delta Connection on our side. Just ASA, Comair, etc.
Let the PR issues hopefully drive the rest.
Let the PR issues hopefully drive the rest.
SP
Originally Posted by flyingfarmer
I guess you assume SWA pilots will choose ALPA. I think they would stick with SWAPA, no national politics with competitors, scope, etc.; just what's best for SWA pilots. Seems like a no brainer!
Where in the post did you see that stated?
The post says they welcome those higher W2's working in ATL, as it will be useful for comparison in future DAL contract talks. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
SP
09-07-2011, 06:11 PM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,178
Quick question, forgot to bid, from an old EAL pilot:
If all the flying was mainline and should have stayed mainline, why didn't ALPA/APA insist on it staying mainline? Yes, it would have meant mainline guys taking a pay cut to fly 50-70 seaters, but they would have stayed within the scope clause. At the worst, the pay would have been like current RJ work AND under the mainline banner.
GF
If all the flying was mainline and should have stayed mainline, why didn't ALPA/APA insist on it staying mainline? Yes, it would have meant mainline guys taking a pay cut to fly 50-70 seaters, but they would have stayed within the scope clause. At the worst, the pay would have been like current RJ work AND under the mainline banner.
GF
09-20-2011, 04:12 PM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Reserve on tha Beach
Posts: 546
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
Quick question, forgot to bid, from an old EAL pilot:
If all the flying was mainline and should have stayed mainline, why didn't ALPA/APA insist on it staying mainline? Yes, it would have meant mainline guys taking a pay cut to fly 50-70 seaters, but they would have stayed within the scope clause. At the worst, the pay would have been like current RJ work AND under the mainline banner.
GF
If all the flying was mainline and should have stayed mainline, why didn't ALPA/APA insist on it staying mainline? Yes, it would have meant mainline guys taking a pay cut to fly 50-70 seaters, but they would have stayed within the scope clause. At the worst, the pay would have been like current RJ work AND under the mainline banner.
GF
09-20-2011, 04:26 PM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,178
To answer some of the posts, like unitedflyer,
Post-EAL, I went full-time Reserves, retired. Now, I got a great gig, flying corporate. No commuting, it's 30 minutes to the office; work reasonable amount, but have great layovers, good equipment, no office/union politics, no bidding (I ask for vacation, I get it), toured the globe and have fun flying. Couldn't ask for better.
GF
Post-EAL, I went full-time Reserves, retired. Now, I got a great gig, flying corporate. No commuting, it's 30 minutes to the office; work reasonable amount, but have great layovers, good equipment, no office/union politics, no bidding (I ask for vacation, I get it), toured the globe and have fun flying. Couldn't ask for better.
GF
11-02-2011, 06:28 AM
#140
Sho me da money!
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B25, Left
Posts: 947
Originally Posted by flyingfarmer
I guess you assume SWA pilots will choose ALPA. I think they would stick with SWAPA, no national politics with competitors, scope, etc.; just what's best for SWA pilots. Seems like a no brainer!
Now Back to the thread.
