Not true about the bottom 25-30 percent only. 1996 and beyond numbers clearly support UA pilots. Here's the bottom line. My position on the list is irrelevant to the concept of seniority. A pilot senior to me should have access ahead of me to the jumpseat, just like he or she does to equipment, seats etc... A pilot junior to me, should not. Pretty simple and fair. Whatever method that ensures seniority rules first and foremost then count me in.

Since I'm asking for the wrong method, then what do you suggest?

 

Ok, just because I'm on a layover and bored, here is a description of what transpired from someone on the Frontier Pilot's union regarding the failed United merger. It's kinda long, but describes how the United MEC did not live up to their promises and let the Frontier pilots fall by the wayside. This is commonly what I heard when flying with Frontier pilots. Boy Scouts, I think not.

BILLY WALKER'S REPORT

Then on the 9th of July Pringle called me to let me know there would be an announcement the next day that United was buying Frontier from PeoplExpress.

Jump for Joy!

Soon the employee leadership, with the exception of the IAM who separated from the Coalition prior the Peoples deal, met with United's Pringle and others who would be involved with labor negotiations. We felt we would be treated fairly such as the PanAm/United deal a year earlier... Wrong!

It was evident United would only deal with the pilots first and then expect the other unions to follow suit. It was also obvious we were about learn some new dance steps a-la Pringle. Doug Bader,MEC Vice Chairman, Skip Taylor, MEC Secretary, and I flew to Seattle for the United pilots MEC meeting. I instructed the pilots Negotiating Committee to begin the process in hopes our initial indication was just posturing on the part of Pringle.

Our initial fears proved justified as United clearly wanted the Frontier pilots to negotiate a deal based on our then current wages and then it would be up to us to convince the United pilots to accept it. In essence, we were being asked to do something illegal. We were being asked to abrogate the United pilots contract.

At that time we felt fortunate as we had developed a great relationship with the United pilots. Doug and I had several meetings with Roger Hall the United MEC chairman. Earlier, Roger had made some efforts to approach Ferris with the hope he would be interested in acquiring Frontier. We had gone to point to agree, in principle, that a future merger would be on a straight date-of-hire basis.

The next step was to put our respective MEC negotiating committees together to work in concert.

We had several meetings both jointly and severally. The United pilots many many times promised, assured, and guaranteed the Frontier pilots that what happened August 28th, 1986 could not, would not happen. But it did. Why?

Roger Hall was called on by members of the Frontier Coalition for re-confirmation of these promises. More than once the Coalition traveled to Chicago for personal meetings with Hall and Pat Friend, United AFA Chairperson. Each time we received the same answer first espoused by Pat Austin..."We might dangle you, but we won't let you drop." Doug Bader requested re-assurance on several occasions.

Randy Babbitt, Executive Administrator ALPA, worried that the United pilots were in Las Vegas gambling with the Frontier pilots money. I asked what options were available. Of course there were none, only the promise that in the end all bets would be covered by our United "brothers."

Meanwhile the two negotiating committees met on and off with Pringle and his team. There was plenty of posturing and game playing, much to the consternation of the Frontier folks. We asked Congressman Tim Wirth (later a Senator from Colo) to intercede. Tim would come to our aid many times and into the negotiations twice.

It was becoming apparent that United had structured a win-win deal for themselves and a lose-lose deal for us. Ironically, United would end up losing the Frontier assets to Continental. These Frontier Assets were acquired illegally by United. UAL paid PeopleExpress for specific FAL assets with People transferring ownership direct to United. Nothing ever flowed through Frontier. Even more ironic was the later Continental's argument, through its new subsidiary Frontier, showed United failed to bargain in good faith with the Frontier employees.

With these concerns becoming more apparent the Frontier Negotiating Committee expressed their position, as did I for the MEC, to the United MEC.

A few days prior to the FAL bankruptcy I requested ALPA president, Hank Duffy's, presence in Chicago. Duffy rearranged his schedule and met with Hall and myself for a complete briefing at which time I reiterated my concerns. I intimated I had been left dangling out a 40 story building. That I was hanging by a couple of finger nails, but that Roger Hall and the UAL ALPA negotiating committee assured me they would not let me drop. I explained that, although I had locked arms with the UAL MEC up to this point, I now disagreed with Hall's view. That unless the United pilots agreed to take United up on their last offer we could well be sacrificed.

We Frontier folks should feel confident the United pilots would not let us down. After all we among their strongest supporters during the 1985 29 day strike. Probably, we were their strongest allies.

Duffy turned to Hall and asked him for his assessment, which Hall agreed was as I had described. Hall went on to reiterate his position, that he and the MEC knew this management and that they would be there to pull me to safety at the "right time." That we might have to suffer going through a shut down of operations and possibly a bankruptcy, but that last call from Hartigan (then president of UAL) would come or Hall would make that last call himself. Believe me, if I didn't have an ulcer by then it wasn't for the lack of trying.

This meeting occurred hours before the shut down. The shuttle negotiations having failed, not for lack of effort by Tim Wirth and his aid Phil Clapp, brought the next crisis.

Burr threatened that unless the pilots struck a deal he was going to put Frontier into Chapter 11. Again, I requested Duffy's presence. Again, Duffy responded and met with Hall and myself for a lengthy briefing on our situation.

Duffy asked me to assess things from my perspective. I painted the picture of having been hanging by finger nails since he left our last meeting. Only now I was certain Hall and the UAL MEC would renege on the promises, assurances, and guarantees made to the Frontier family and I had better try to work my way to safety. I went on to say I had worked my way up to the roof-top, but the building was a blazing inferno and I would burn to death or jump. If I jumped the only thing that could save me would be someone with a net. I turned to Roger Hall and looked him square in the eye and asked, "are you going to be there with that net, Roger?" Roger did not hesitate and said he would definitely be there.

In ALPA's defense, Duffy could have done little with the way the Airline Pilots Association is structured with MEC autonomy. Certainly, with Roger Halls continued reassurances ALPA national could do little more than pressure the UAL MEC.

The following day, one year ago today, August 28th, 1986 the UAL MEC listened to my appeal, turned their brotherly backs, and have ignored the plight of the Frontier family to this day.

 

DOH! Look, I really don't care about the jumpseat and the method used to determine priority. The new MEC will decide that. If you want to hold to the JP obstructionist ways going forward, then you're in for a long, lonely path of disappointment. You can vote for Tony if you like but the majority of the CAL pilots want to move forward - not stand still.

 

You should have just included a link to Billy Walker's report. By leaving out the first third it does not tell the true story. Like I wrote earlier, the Frontier MEC asked for something the UAL MEC could/would not deliver. We had just come off a strike that ultimately lead to a B-Scale for new hires and now the Frontier Pilots ask for the UAL MEC to accept them as a group with much lower pay rates. Wishful thinking by the Frontier pilots but the UAL pilots would have hung Roger Hall had he accepted B-Scale rates for Captains. It's a far reach to try to blame the UAL pilots for what happened to the Frontier pilots. Re-read the whole letter, especially the first third. YES, Boy Scouts!

The link follows:


BILLY WALKER'S REPORT

 

What is not said in Billy’s letter is that Ferris was playing both pilot groups; he never intended to merge with Frontier. His goal was to acquire Frontier's hangars at Stapleton and a few minor assets including two MD80’s that he did not intend to fly. Walker wanted the UAL-MEC to agree to a lower wage agreement for his pilots. The United pilots had no interest in that idea after just striking over the two tier pay scale. Ferris knew the UAL-MEC would never agree to such a deal and he gleefully intended to hang the failure of the proposed merger on ALPA. Walker fell into his trap, but he nevertheless blamed this debacle on Roger Hall and the UAL-MEC for years after.

As it turned out, Ferris lost out on the hangars in court and the following year his airline career was history. Billy will always believe Ferris was an honest fellow and wanted to save the Frontier pilots except for those mean United pilots that shut him down for 29 days. It didn't help Walker's case when he told the UAL-MEC that he thought Frontier should be entitled to a DOH merger. Short of agreeing to a double breasted operation to give Ferris what he could not get with a strike, there was not much the UAL pilots could do for Billy.

 

I did include the link, and that is NOT how the whole thing reads, yes it started out well, but when the United MEC realized the Frontier negotiations could compromise their B scale arbitration, they dropped the Frontier guys like a sack of rotten tomatoes.

Maybe the below will help you out.

Delusional

de·lu·sion·al [dih-loo-zhuh-nl]

Psychiatry: maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness

Have a nice night.

 

I disagree, but I only have what I heard from Frontier pilots and by going by Billy's account. The UAL pilots could have accepted the companies offer and integrated the Frontier pilots, but as was said in Billy's account, they were dangling them out to try and make gains. I'm sure there is blame to go all around though. The point is the UAL MEC has some egg on their face as well.

 

Delusional, I guess you've already started to believe that the UAL MEC shafted the CAL pilots because we wouldn't allow the CAL MEC to staple 3,000 UAL pilots to the bottom of the merged seniority list.

But it's not about what's bothering you, it's about payback for the guys trying to protect their family and you feeling entitled because you bought into JP's overreach. It was tough for the Frontier guys that were willing to do anything to avoid being mixed in with the misfits and scabs of PE and CAL but there was no way a B-Scale Captain was going to be inserted into the UAL pilot list. Maybe that's where the overreach JP ask for came from.

Not intended to bash and especially to the Frontier guys out there. Skyflying is just using the Frontier guys to sell his point. Sad that he opens old wounds for his misguided purposes.

 

"I did include the link, and that is NOT how the whole thing reads, yes it started out well, but when the United MEC realized the Frontier negotiations could compromise their B scale arbitration, they dropped the Frontier guys like a sack of rotten tomatoes."

First let me tell you I was there and knew the players. The reason why the deal went south wasn't Roger Hall as Capt. Billy wanted to portray it was then Sr VP Dave Pringle and Rakesh Gangwal who killed the deal.

How you might ask?

They made promises to the Frontier pilots about how they would be integrated into the flying at UAL. The short story is it violated all seniority, DOH, and longevity principals ALPA stood for. These management people wanted the deal to go their way without negotiation and the UAL MEC would not play their game. They were willing to negotiate according to ALPA guidelines and not Management's.

But wait it gets worse! while the negotiations were in limbo the Frontier Management decide to shut the airline down and force the deal. What happened next was this; United Management said, "NO DEAL!" They were negotiating for an operating company not a parked one. According to Rakesh the restart-up costs were not worth the money now and they could get the airplanes (Frontier had already sold the best ones previously to UAL) on their own.

Capt. Billy was looking for blame and as always it was Management who was at fault!

Moral of the story? You want a destroyed pilot group leave it up to management to make it happen.

 

Baron:

"including two MD80’s that he did not intend to fly."

Just so you know UAL had already purchased them and was leasing them back to Frontier.