Displacement bid out
06-21-2015, 04:23 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Yo Ben,
It would be really great if you would pen a nice missive to the troops on the old LCAL forum (the forum that requires coin to join AND allows scabs) and implore all of the UNITED PILOTS who participate there to flush that forum once and for all and join the UA forum. Perhaps you could suggest that they suck up their anger and post their beef(s) on the (new, combined UA/CA) forum because their next contract, and all the ones after that depend on ALL of us showing a unified front to Willis. This isn't rocket surgery. The old UA is gone. The old CAL is gone. We all need to forget our past and deal with the giant helmet fire that is sucking the O2 out of this place before we auger in.
All the ISL nonsense and "who took my cheese" crap are history. No amount of (sickening, fractious, petty, whiny, petulant) *****ing will change ANY of it.
So ALPA dicked you? WELCOME to the party! But from this day on, our union is all we have to repair what is left of our careers. And The Union isn't going anywhere until several thousand guys retire, at the very least. Fantasy is great, reality not so much. Hell, YOU'RE an ALPA officer! Act like the leader your pilots elected you to be and start the damn dialog. This circular firing squad drill is asinine and wholly counter productive to us, the new hires, and our fellow 121 pilots as we move forward. Get the Leonards pulling on the rope already!
There are massive brown issues percolating and only unity and group HP will avail us the muscle to deal with them. The peeps in Willis are surely taking note of our collective disfunction and laughing their bums off.
And the opener looms.
Fire away lads.
It would be really great if you would pen a nice missive to the troops on the old LCAL forum (the forum that requires coin to join AND allows scabs) and implore all of the UNITED PILOTS who participate there to flush that forum once and for all and join the UA forum. Perhaps you could suggest that they suck up their anger and post their beef(s) on the (new, combined UA/CA) forum because their next contract, and all the ones after that depend on ALL of us showing a unified front to Willis. This isn't rocket surgery. The old UA is gone. The old CAL is gone. We all need to forget our past and deal with the giant helmet fire that is sucking the O2 out of this place before we auger in.
All the ISL nonsense and "who took my cheese" crap are history. No amount of (sickening, fractious, petty, whiny, petulant) *****ing will change ANY of it.
So ALPA dicked you? WELCOME to the party! But from this day on, our union is all we have to repair what is left of our careers. And The Union isn't going anywhere until several thousand guys retire, at the very least. Fantasy is great, reality not so much. Hell, YOU'RE an ALPA officer! Act like the leader your pilots elected you to be and start the damn dialog. This circular firing squad drill is asinine and wholly counter productive to us, the new hires, and our fellow 121 pilots as we move forward. Get the Leonards pulling on the rope already!
There are massive brown issues percolating and only unity and group HP will avail us the muscle to deal with them. The peeps in Willis are surely taking note of our collective disfunction and laughing their bums off.
And the opener looms.
Fire away lads.
06-21-2015, 04:54 PM
#92
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by oldmako
Yo Ben,
It would be really great if you would pen a nice missive to the troops on the old LCAL forum (the forum that requires coin to join AND allows scabs) and implore all of the UNITED PILOTS who participate there to flush that forum once and for all and join the UA forum. Perhaps you could suggest that they suck up their anger and post their beef(s) on the (new, combined UA/CA) forum because their next contract, and all the ones after that depend on ALL of us showing a unified front to Willis. This isn't rocket surgery. The old UA is gone. The old CAL is gone. We all need to forget our past and deal with the giant helmet fire that is sucking the O2 out of this place before we auger in.
All the ISL nonsense and "who took my cheese" crap are history. No amount of (sickening, fractious, petty, whiny, petulant) *****ing will change ANY of it.
So ALPA dicked you? WELCOME to the party! But from this day on, our union is all we have to repair what is left of our careers. And The Union isn't going anywhere until several thousand guys retire, at the very least. Fantasy is great, reality not so much. Hell, YOU'RE an ALPA officer! Act like the leader your pilots elected you to be and start the damn dialog. This circular firing squad drill is asinine and wholly counter productive to us, the new hires, and our fellow 121 pilots as we move forward. Get the Leonards pulling on the rope already!
There are massive brown issues percolating and only unity and group HP will avail us the muscle to deal with them. The peeps in Willis are surely taking note of our collective disfunction and laughing their bums off.
And the opener looms.
Fire away lads.
It would be really great if you would pen a nice missive to the troops on the old LCAL forum (the forum that requires coin to join AND allows scabs) and implore all of the UNITED PILOTS who participate there to flush that forum once and for all and join the UA forum. Perhaps you could suggest that they suck up their anger and post their beef(s) on the (new, combined UA/CA) forum because their next contract, and all the ones after that depend on ALL of us showing a unified front to Willis. This isn't rocket surgery. The old UA is gone. The old CAL is gone. We all need to forget our past and deal with the giant helmet fire that is sucking the O2 out of this place before we auger in.
All the ISL nonsense and "who took my cheese" crap are history. No amount of (sickening, fractious, petty, whiny, petulant) *****ing will change ANY of it.
So ALPA dicked you? WELCOME to the party! But from this day on, our union is all we have to repair what is left of our careers. And The Union isn't going anywhere until several thousand guys retire, at the very least. Fantasy is great, reality not so much. Hell, YOU'RE an ALPA officer! Act like the leader your pilots elected you to be and start the damn dialog. This circular firing squad drill is asinine and wholly counter productive to us, the new hires, and our fellow 121 pilots as we move forward. Get the Leonards pulling on the rope already!
There are massive brown issues percolating and only unity and group HP will avail us the muscle to deal with them. The peeps in Willis are surely taking note of our collective disfunction and laughing their bums off.
And the opener looms.
Fire away lads.
My history is with USAir which was absolutely 100% scab-free. Coming to CAL in 2005 was a HUGE culture shock for me; to the point where I actually didn't enjoy the job that I worked all my life to achieve. In short, I had to let that hate go in order to stay employed, married, etc. I doubt the lCal guys are going to forget their experiences for the past 30 years overnight.
I'm sure to catch hell because I just publicly confirmed that I don't hate scabs; truth is I don't hate anyone. Been far to blessed in life to hate.
I've also NEVER walked away from a moral fight or sold out one of my Bro's.
I'd like to discuss the issue further if discussion is both give and take. The lCal guys used the tools available in their shed to deal with the issue, so did the lUal guys; some honesty and strategy on how to use both sets of tools would be best in my opinion. Because of the two immense differences between the two strikes, I doubt we get either side to "convert" or "assimilate"; but we shouldn't want that anyhow. This is a new airline with new obstacles; we will need to develop new strategies and respect each other's input. It's just a little hard to do that on a forum.
I agree that this issue is important. I might suggest that a little empathy and respect towards each other's experiences would probably be more conducive to the contract and working conditions we deserve, than expending energy on a subject that we probably agree on anyway.
I would also never expect anyone to change their opinion on the issue, just their strategy.
Thanks for the suggestion. I hope we speak more about this.
Frats,
Ben
412/716-8208
06-21-2015, 05:56 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Discuss it with ME??? Ben, I'm happy to carp about our past over beers but I really don't think we have anything to discuss. You're not my rep, I'm simply a junior line puke concerned about the next CBA and incensed about all the fratricide going on around here, period.
Your reply begins with what happened at CAL in 1985. Then USAIR. What decade was that, and what does it have to do with where we are today and where we're headed?
Wow. I've been paying dues ALPA dues since 1887 and NONE OF THAT MATTERS. Who cares?
We are supposed to be one group of pilots now. One. Absent that, we're screwed and our next contract will be full of concessions in exchange for a few bucks. In totality, we will have given up the farm for the hourly rate. We will be moonwalking all the way to mediocrity.
PS. I HATE scabs.
Your reply begins with what happened at CAL in 1985. Then USAIR. What decade was that, and what does it have to do with where we are today and where we're headed?
Wow. I've been paying dues ALPA dues since 1887 and NONE OF THAT MATTERS. Who cares?
We are supposed to be one group of pilots now. One. Absent that, we're screwed and our next contract will be full of concessions in exchange for a few bucks. In totality, we will have given up the farm for the hourly rate. We will be moonwalking all the way to mediocrity.
PS. I HATE scabs.
Last edited by oldmako; 06-21-2015 at 06:07 PM.
06-21-2015, 06:08 PM
#94
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by oldmako
Discuss it with ME??? Ben, I'm happy to carp about our past over beers but I really don't think we have anything to discuss. You're not my rep, I'm simply a junior line puke concerned about the next CBA and incensed about all the fratricide going on around here, period.
Your reply begins with what happened at CAL in 1985. Then USAIR. What decade was that, and what does it have to do with where we are today and where we're headed?
Wow. I've been paying dues ALPA dues since 1887 and NONE OF THAT MATTERS. Who cares?
We are supposed to be one group of pilots now. One. Absent that, we're screwed and our next contract will be full of concessions in exchange for a few bucks. In totality, we will have given up the farm for the hourly rate. We will be moonwalking all the way to mediocrity.
PS. I HATE scabs.
Your reply begins with what happened at CAL in 1985. Then USAIR. What decade was that, and what does it have to do with where we are today and where we're headed?
Wow. I've been paying dues ALPA dues since 1887 and NONE OF THAT MATTERS. Who cares?
We are supposed to be one group of pilots now. One. Absent that, we're screwed and our next contract will be full of concessions in exchange for a few bucks. In totality, we will have given up the farm for the hourly rate. We will be moonwalking all the way to mediocrity.
PS. I HATE scabs.
My bad
06-21-2015, 06:27 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
An olive branch proffered to me is a waste of your time, talent and persuasive skills. While it sounds nice, I am not your enemy and neither are 99 percent of the LUAL pilots that I know and work with. You and I speaking on the phone, over issues upon which we have no control, would only further the agenda of those who oppose us. How we got here is irrelevant because it cannot be changed. Further, its corrosive. I implore all to let it go!
I want all the slicks, and all the Marvin's to man up and to present a cohesive front in order to secure the CBA we deserve. Idiotic history lessons, opinions and vicious acrimony over fur balls will only erode our chances.
I want all the slicks, and all the Marvin's to man up and to present a cohesive front in order to secure the CBA we deserve. Idiotic history lessons, opinions and vicious acrimony over fur balls will only erode our chances.
06-21-2015, 06:35 PM
#96
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by oldmako
An olive branch proffered to me is a waste of your time, talent and persuasive skills. While it sounds nice, I am not your enemy and neither are 99 percent of the LUAL pilots that I know and work with. You and I speaking on the phone, over issues upon which we have no control, would only further the agenda of those who oppose us. How we got here is irrelevant because it cannot be changed. Further, its corrosive. I implore all to let it go!
I want all the slicks, and all the Marvin's to man up and to present a cohesive front in order to secure the CBA we deserve. Idiotic history lessons, opinions and vicious acrimony over fur balls will only erode our chances.
I want all the slicks, and all the Marvin's to man up and to present a cohesive front in order to secure the CBA we deserve. Idiotic history lessons, opinions and vicious acrimony over fur balls will only erode our chances.
06-21-2015, 07:35 PM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 1,982
Originally Posted by A320fumes
3 reasons. 1) Because my vice and I thought this resolution should come from the council. 2) we hadn't had time to speak to the ALPA Nat'l Attorney's since we were in session @ORD. 3) Politically, there was no way to get anything done as the MEC was in session and dealing with the recall of Captain Heppner that week...But I know the cheap shot you suggest. I've already volunteered to be displaced, should that be necessary.
To your first point, I'll let you speak to an IAH PI on that one. But briefly, All IAH 756 Instructors were told that their services were no longer needed and were displaced. Then after those guys recall rights were expired, the company changed their minds and offered 25 756 PI positions at IAH TK. They hired 25, 24 lUal + 1lCal. They subsequently fired the 1 lCal guy about a month later. Also noteworthy was the lCal displacement letters informed the displaced guys that they could use their bump to the 747 because of the fence. In the latest round of 787 PI vacancies, the company's position was that lUal guys could not bid 787 PI because of the fence. After MEC level complaints, the company removed the the fence restriction. In the company's defense, they only hired lCal guys for those positions.
Now I know you'll counter that they hired the lUal guys because they're obviously more qualified. But the truth is that the guys hired ended up training guys on the 764 (an oddball aircraft that really should be it's own BES), an airplane that none of them had ever flown. Then you say, "they're obviously still more qualified than the IAH guys who had been displaced". In no way do I suggest that the PI's hired were not qualified.
In short, we've already seen this move in IAH. I fully expect B-737 CA vacancies in IAH, after the grandfather rights expire. They'll probably wait at least 6 months to announce IAH 737 CA vacancies.
-Ben
To your first point, I'll let you speak to an IAH PI on that one. But briefly, All IAH 756 Instructors were told that their services were no longer needed and were displaced. Then after those guys recall rights were expired, the company changed their minds and offered 25 756 PI positions at IAH TK. They hired 25, 24 lUal + 1lCal. They subsequently fired the 1 lCal guy about a month later. Also noteworthy was the lCal displacement letters informed the displaced guys that they could use their bump to the 747 because of the fence. In the latest round of 787 PI vacancies, the company's position was that lUal guys could not bid 787 PI because of the fence. After MEC level complaints, the company removed the the fence restriction. In the company's defense, they only hired lCal guys for those positions.
Now I know you'll counter that they hired the lUal guys because they're obviously more qualified. But the truth is that the guys hired ended up training guys on the 764 (an oddball aircraft that really should be it's own BES), an airplane that none of them had ever flown. Then you say, "they're obviously still more qualified than the IAH guys who had been displaced". In no way do I suggest that the PI's hired were not qualified.
In short, we've already seen this move in IAH. I fully expect B-737 CA vacancies in IAH, after the grandfather rights expire. They'll probably wait at least 6 months to announce IAH 737 CA vacancies.
-Ben
When was Heppner recalled? I don't recall ever hearing about that.
06-21-2015, 07:42 PM
#98
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by oldmako
I want all the slicks, and all the Marvin's to man up and to present a cohesive front in order to secure the CBA we deserve. Idiotic history lessons, opinions and vicious acrimony over fur balls will only erode our chances.
The sad reality is, the mantra that many LUAL pilots preach about being big bad unionists is a complete farce. When time came to vote in this substandard UPA all everyone talked about was me, me, me. The company is giving away "my flying", I want "my Captain seat", blah blah blah. (Everyone on the LUAL side conveniently forgot that nothing was "stolen", as we were operating under a TP&A that was signed and agreed upon by YOUR MEC that protected 100% LCAL flying and only 90% LUAL flying. Of course, those protections stemmed from a contract that YOU agreed to).
How about "manning up" and discuss the true issues such as scope, compensation, work rules, and retirement. Keep all the acrimonious slick tie talk, scab hating, nonsense to yourself. Wearing a silly piece of Chinese made tie tack proves NOTHING.
What's the excuse going to be this time for YES voters if/when we get another substandard TA???!!!
06-21-2015, 08:08 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 1,982
Originally Posted by Mitch Rapp05
All this tough talk about Marvins, slick ties, & manning up! Blah, blah, blah. Cohesive front my tail!
What's the excuse going to be this time for YES voters if/when we get another substandard TA???!!!
What's the excuse going to be this time for YES voters if/when we get another substandard TA???!!!
Mitch...the next TA vote isn't going to be complicated by a three party negotiation where a Seniority Mediation is waiting in the wings. The sooner everyone starts pulling on the same end of the rope, the better.
06-22-2015, 07:52 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: Gets weekends off
Posts: 1,168
Originally Posted by Mitch Rapp05
The sad reality is, the mantra that many LUAL pilots preach about being big bad unionists is a complete farce. When time came to vote in this substandard UPA all everyone talked about was me, me, me. The company is giving away "my flying", I want "my Captain seat", blah blah blah.
But certainly other factors were at play, and most of the complaints by the people who so nobly advocating voting "No" were not because of the degradation in their pay and work rules.
So spare us how voting "No" on this past TA was all about the merits of it or your strong unionism and not some other agenda because we can all see through it.
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