Originally Posted by boxer6

Do you REALLY think it's that simple?

First, There's a well written post above about industry standard.

Second, if you don't think the UA pilot group would not be in the same position today as the FAs AND Mechanics had they not voted in the TA, you're not being intellectually honest.

Originally Posted by boxer6

Do you REALLY think it's that simple?

First, There's a well written post above about industry standard.

Second, if you don't think the UA pilot group would not be in the same position today as the FAs AND Mechanics had they not voted in the TA, you're not being intellectually honest.

Originally Posted by DashTrash

First of all, when DAL accepted and ratified an agreement that had 76 seat regional jets, that became industry standard. It is incredibly difficult to negotiate for more restrictive than industry standard. It becomes a game of what are you willing to give for it. Second, SWA is not a fair comparison because their business model is totally different than ours. They don't feed into a hub and spoke system. They have a linear route structure. Also, it was Legacy Airline Pilots that allowed scope concessions for more pay over a decade ago. Once, the horse is out of the barn, it's awfully difficult to get it back inside the barn. That's why DAL's TA is so important and so will ours in the future. When you negotiate a deal, you really have to look at it as the language is going to be there for a long time.

I see another huge threat to our scope as seen at DAL, which is less restrictive language regarding joint ventures or code shares.

Originally Posted by sleeves

On one hand you cation about how important language is as it is there for such a long time and on the other hand you are willing to give up the power to control the language put into your contract to another pilot group. To me scope is the most important section of the contract. There is nothing I will sell it for.

Originally Posted by untied

That is the traditional thinking.

Going forward, I hope we start ignoring the "industry standard" concessionary deals.

We negotiate with UAL management. That's it.

I don't need a new contract. The one we have will suit me just fine if the alternative is to give up more jobs.

I don't want DAL pilots to negotiate for me. I really don't care if the company whines about the "new standard". I'll keep pointing at Southwest, Jet Blue, Virgin and all the other airlines that do their own flying. We CAN negotiate that way. We're just afraid to.

Originally Posted by pilot64golfer

They just ordered 10 more 777s and they've added 15 more A-350's and 15 more 787's since the merger. So that's 40 more WB aircraft.

So ya, they've ordered more WB.

Originally Posted by intrepidcv11

All so they can park an equal number of WB's we currently operate. Well I guess we can celebrate that...

Originally Posted by sleeves

On one hand you cation about how important language is as it is there for such a long time and on the other hand you are willing to give up the power to control the language put into your contract to another pilot group. To me scope is the most important section of the contract. There is nothing I will sell it for.

Originally Posted by DashTrash

For me, scope is the single most important section of a contract also. The only thing that I was saying, is that once industry standard is established (which happened when DAL ratified their agreement) that language is very difficult to negotiate more restrictive than that. It comes down to what you are willing to give up for it because the Company is in the drivers seat from a negotiating standpoint, and they know it! If it were to come down to it, and the negotiations actually end up in binding arbitration, you would be on the losing side if you were asking for language more restrictive than industry standard. Also, in the mediation phase the mediator will fall back on what the industry standard is.