Union Email pertaining to UPA extension
10-14-2015, 12:44 PM
#131
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
I don't think it has to be an "All or nothing" proposition. The pessemists (and nearly every pilot has a right to be one) see contract negotiations as a chess game where either the company wins, or we win.
But...and that is a big butt (insert favorite political/celebrity joke here): if Oscar is really trying to change the airline for the better, then it is possible it could be win-win.
I'm a skeptic and pessemist on most things: politics, big business, media, education, all levels of government, lawyers and car salesmen, big medicine, entertainment, TV, most religions, and my last refuge, the military, which has been overrun by the aforementioned.
I trust almost no institutions and very few individuals. I like to say "I wouldn't be paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me."
Oscar is the first CEO that made me arch my eyebrows and say "Whatthe? This guy might be different."
I'm cautious and a doubting Thomas, but there is a slight chance this might be mutually beneficial.
If so, I would trust (and hope) the negotiating committee would make it air-tight, so it wouldn't backfire on us.
I'm curious as to what they've got. I also wouldn't have a problem saying "no, thanks," if it is one-sided.
But...and that is a big butt (insert favorite political/celebrity joke here): if Oscar is really trying to change the airline for the better, then it is possible it could be win-win.
I'm a skeptic and pessemist on most things: politics, big business, media, education, all levels of government, lawyers and car salesmen, big medicine, entertainment, TV, most religions, and my last refuge, the military, which has been overrun by the aforementioned.
I trust almost no institutions and very few individuals. I like to say "I wouldn't be paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me."
Oscar is the first CEO that made me arch my eyebrows and say "Whatthe? This guy might be different."
I'm cautious and a doubting Thomas, but there is a slight chance this might be mutually beneficial.
If so, I would trust (and hope) the negotiating committee would make it air-tight, so it wouldn't backfire on us.
I'm curious as to what they've got. I also wouldn't have a problem saying "no, thanks," if it is one-sided.
Oscar is the first CEO that made me arch my eyebrows and say "Whatthe? This guy might be different."
What was it that caused/made you to think that?
10-14-2015, 12:55 PM
#132
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Because one of the first things he did was admit things were "not right." (Statement diluted for terms of use).
All the others I've seen tried to blow sunshine and tell you things were great, when you knew they weren't.
He has at least made overtures to allow us---and the customers---to say what is wrong, and what would fix it.
So, while I am still a pessemist, I'll give him the benefit of a doubt to see if his words are hollow, or ring true.
All the others I've seen tried to blow sunshine and tell you things were great, when you knew they weren't.
He has at least made overtures to allow us---and the customers---to say what is wrong, and what would fix it.
So, while I am still a pessemist, I'll give him the benefit of a doubt to see if his words are hollow, or ring true.
10-14-2015, 01:13 PM
#133
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
No, I was there for The Michelin Man.
He always struck me as a drowning man, clutching at straws.
Heffe always struck me as a liar.
I judge the man by his actions. Too soon to say conclusively, but I think there is a slight chance for a change.
We'll know for sure soon.
He always struck me as a drowning man, clutching at straws.
Heffe always struck me as a liar.
I judge the man by his actions. Too soon to say conclusively, but I think there is a slight chance for a change.
We'll know for sure soon.
10-14-2015, 07:55 PM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 777
Posts: 2,158
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
I'm puzzled by the philosophy of "I refuse to get a new contract until they start respecting the last one"..... especially when we are talking about an IMPROVED contract. If it was concessions, I understand. I read someone post that they absolutely refuse to consider a new contract until the IT department is fixed. Umm..... that could be 2025. So you want to hold up contract improvements to make a point? That makes no sense to me at all. Not trying to be disrespectful, but contract compliance has ALWAYS been an issue for as long as I've been here. And I'm sure always will be. I wouldn't think that would be a reason for not negotiating contract improvements.
As far as SJS. I highly doubt it. I'd wager that 90% of the UAL pilots on the present seniority list will not benefit 1 ounce from having 100 seaters on the property because the pay is so low there is no incentive to bid it. Doesn't mean it's not an important piece of the contract pie, just that I don't think it's "enticing" to those of us that have been here awhile.
As far as SJS. I highly doubt it. I'd wager that 90% of the UAL pilots on the present seniority list will not benefit 1 ounce from having 100 seaters on the property because the pay is so low there is no incentive to bid it. Doesn't mean it's not an important piece of the contract pie, just that I don't think it's "enticing" to those of us that have been here awhile.
Until it has been demonstrated, the company will drag out implementation and violate the contract at every turn. I don't believe for one minute that they will comply with "New and improved" parts of the contract we would be getting in return.
So, essentially, if they do this, we give up something for nothing, again. You might say that it would be worth the pay. I ask have you been paid correctly in the last 2 years?
Sorry, I just don't buy it until the leopard changes its spots. Maybe Oscar is the guy. He's going to have to prove it.
10-14-2015, 09:14 PM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: 777FO
Posts: 710
I don't see much point in early negotiations... it seems that if a TA is reached then a "No" vote will inevitably follow. Well, judging by a lot of the comments on this thread and recent votes elsewhere at least. I'd like an improved contract that keeps us competitive, but it seems like a lot of folks are jumping to conclusions about the company's current motives based on past misdeeds. Oscar has been on the job a few weeks and already some folks on here are pulling out the knives.
Before I got hired, a UAL buddy of mine said "Southwest pilots live to stick it to the competition but UAL pilots live to stick it to their management (and vice versa)." I'm glad to be here but now I see what he meant.
Before I got hired, a UAL buddy of mine said "Southwest pilots live to stick it to the competition but UAL pilots live to stick it to their management (and vice versa)." I'm glad to be here but now I see what he meant.
10-14-2015, 10:16 PM
#137
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by Dave Fitzgerald
Fair enough. I guess I'm more pessimistic than you are.
Until it has been demonstrated, the company will drag out implementation and violate the contract at every turn. I don't believe for one minute that they will comply with "New and improved" parts of the contract we would be getting in return.
So, essentially, if they do this, we give up something for nothing, again. You might say that it would be worth the pay. I ask have you been paid correctly in the last 2 years?
Sorry, I just don't buy it until the leopard changes its spots. Maybe Oscar is the guy. He's going to have to prove it.
Until it has been demonstrated, the company will drag out implementation and violate the contract at every turn. I don't believe for one minute that they will comply with "New and improved" parts of the contract we would be getting in return.
So, essentially, if they do this, we give up something for nothing, again. You might say that it would be worth the pay. I ask have you been paid correctly in the last 2 years?
Sorry, I just don't buy it until the leopard changes its spots. Maybe Oscar is the guy. He's going to have to prove it.
I will say this.... I was actually shocked at the low number of grievances we have filed. Only 36 in the 3rd quarter. When I can't even log into PBS the night before it closes I find it hard to believe we only have 36.
The pay statement is on point too. I had NEVER had an issue with pay before 2 years ago. Now it's frequent. But I always DO get paid correctly. I just sometimes have to fight for it. Pain in the rumpus for sure, but I'm going to get what I worked for!! Despite it all, I think we will battle these issues regardless of whether it's now through an extension or in the future with Section 6. Personally I think we as a country and an airline are headed for a rather large downturn. I think we are at the pinnacle of our leverage in this cycle, so I would rather negotiate now rather than in the future. But it has to be the right deal. And if it's not, I have no issue at all voting no.
10-14-2015, 10:18 PM
#138
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by Sniper66
If they can agree on all these 6 items on 45 days
They can sure negotiate a new TA by New Year's Day
Those 6 items usually are the hold up of a TA for 2-3 years
They can sure negotiate a new TA by New Year's Day
Those 6 items usually are the hold up of a TA for 2-3 years
10-15-2015, 06:55 AM
#139
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by Thor
The company is also banking on that scenario to get what they really need, as cheap as possible, now. Maybe the ultimate leverage is to walk away from what ever they offer an open full section 6 in May.
10-15-2015, 07:04 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,639
Originally Posted by Thor
Maybe the ultimate leverage is to walk away from what ever they offer an open full section 6 in May.
It's also worth noting that if both parties agree section 6 can be opened at any time.
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