Union Email pertaining to UPA extension
10-14-2015, 09:35 AM
#121
(retired)
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: Old, retired, healthy, debt-free, liquid
Posts: 422
No vested interest in the game anymore, but I don't miss any of this one iota. It all brings back many memories of the beginning of a recurring two to four year period.
Just for the record, listening without restrictions never hurt anybody...it was their inquiry...no skin off anybody's nose.
Just for the record, listening without restrictions never hurt anybody...it was their inquiry...no skin off anybody's nose.
10-14-2015, 10:15 AM
#122
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
Not at all. How could I be pushing for a deal when there is no deal to push for? What I'm pushing for is an open negotiation and dialogue without the restrictions some folks on here want. My personal opinion is THAT is the way to achieve the most gains.... by getting creative and giving the negotiating committee the tools they need to come up with the best possible deal. There are three levels of protection from getting anything shoved down your throat so relax. The beauty is that we don't NEED any deal. So we have the benefit of having some leverage and exploiting that leverage.
I think if you read my posts you'll realize that what you said at the bottom of your post is just dumb. In no way shape or form am I for taking "concessions". You contend that realizing that adjusting some things in the contract could be beneficial to both parties is management shilling?? Sorry you feel that way. Seems narrow minded to me
I think if you read my posts you'll realize that what you said at the bottom of your post is just dumb. In no way shape or form am I for taking "concessions". You contend that realizing that adjusting some things in the contract could be beneficial to both parties is management shilling?? Sorry you feel that way. Seems narrow minded to me
You do know Munoz can't be up to speed on this and it's likely being pushed by remaining JS's minions to increase their creditability with with the new boss.
Last edited by AllenAllert; 10-14-2015 at 10:44 AM.
10-14-2015, 10:41 AM
#123
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by AllenAllert
Not narrow minded at all. If you want to contribute or express your opion to the MEC then let them know by all means but why come on an open forum and build a consensus to do it your way with regard to any possible details. Some on here want to jump to assumptions without giving the MEC a chance to filter the BS to get to what the company really wants.
You do know Munos can't be up to speed on this and it's likely being pushed by remaining JS's minions to increase their creditability with with the new boss.
You do know Munos can't be up to speed on this and it's likely being pushed by remaining JS's minions to increase their creditability with with the new boss.
It's a forum. That's what people do here, bat ideas around for fun. What's ironic is you only attempt to silence those who you don't agree with. I've certainly seen you post your opinions and thoughts on this forum, so I'll keep doing the same thank you very much.
I wouldn't at all assume Munoz has "no idea" what's going on. The letter from McKeen said the opposite.
10-14-2015, 11:03 AM
#124
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
I'm puzzled by the philosophy of "I refuse to get a new contract until they start respecting the last one"..... especially when we are talking about an IMPROVED contract. If it was concessions, I understand. I read someone post that they absolutely refuse to consider a new contract until the IT department is fixed. Umm..... that could be 2025. So you want to hold up contract improvements to make a point? That makes no sense to me at all. Not trying to be disrespectful, but contract compliance has ALWAYS been an issue for as long as I've been here. And I'm sure always will be. I wouldn't think that would be a reason for not negotiating contract improvements.
10-14-2015, 11:10 AM
#125
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
What makes you think I haven't expressed my thoughs to my reps?
It's a forum. That's what people do here, bat ideas around for fun. What's ironic is you only attempt to silence those who you don't agree with. I've certainly seen you post your opinions and thoughts on this forum, so I'll keep doing the same thank you very much.
I wouldn't at all assume Munoz has "no idea" what's going on. The letter from McKeen said the opposite.
It's a forum. That's what people do here, bat ideas around for fun. What's ironic is you only attempt to silence those who you don't agree with. I've certainly seen you post your opinions and thoughts on this forum, so I'll keep doing the same thank you very much.
I wouldn't at all assume Munoz has "no idea" what's going on. The letter from McKeen said the opposite.
"In order to mutually seize the opportunities before us today for the benefit of both the Company and the United pilots, we would like to suggest we enter into an early and expedited period of negotiations with the Association for an extension of the current UPA. We generally envision negotiations along the following parameters, subject to final discussions and commitments between the parties:"
If you think this is anymore than an attempt from McKeen to earn his bones with the new boss you are wrong. Isn't he the same guy working to get the first merged contracts from other employee groups. Is it possible he's using the pilots to save his job. I suggest for our airline, our future and that of the other employee groups we say NO and see the true direction Monuz wants to take the company and the employees.
10-14-2015, 11:29 AM
#126
Stuck Mic
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,059
Why on earth is anybody saying they will vote (yes or no) on anything before actually looking at what is presented? This isn't the presidential election where you will be voting for a giant douche or a turd sandwich and most things stay status quo. This potential new contract extension will directly affect our lives every day.
10-14-2015, 11:49 AM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,180
Everyone on here is making good points and I agree with gettingbumped. We need to be able to run an operation with these 787/350/300ER ACFT. That doesn't mean him or I are going to roll over just that we understand that if we can't fly without cancelling 50% of the time then our codeshares will do it.
FRMS is something I think most of us are confused about, including myself. I have a very basic understanding, and I'm not sure i understand enough to make an educated vote. However, I feel that FRMS is going to be by far the biggest part of this agreement. If were not careful were going to either get 5 day international trips or well get the whip cracked Emirates style.
At the road shows FRMS is going to be my question until I fully understand what I am voting on. Pay is easy, MOU 22 is easy, Furloughs made whole is easy. Reserve and FRMS is the red meat of all this.
FRMS is something I think most of us are confused about, including myself. I have a very basic understanding, and I'm not sure i understand enough to make an educated vote. However, I feel that FRMS is going to be by far the biggest part of this agreement. If were not careful were going to either get 5 day international trips or well get the whip cracked Emirates style.
At the road shows FRMS is going to be my question until I fully understand what I am voting on. Pay is easy, MOU 22 is easy, Furloughs made whole is easy. Reserve and FRMS is the red meat of all this.
10-14-2015, 12:02 PM
#128
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by AllenAllert
You mean this little paragraph:
"In order to mutually seize the opportunities before us today for the benefit of both the Company and the United pilots, we would like to suggest we enter into an early and expedited period of negotiations with the Association for an extension of the current UPA. We generally envision negotiations along the following parameters, subject to final discussions and commitments between the parties:"
If you think this is anymore than an attempt from McKeen to earn his bones with the new boss you are wrong. Isn't he the same guy working to get the first merged contracts from other employee groups. Is it possible he's using the pilots to save his job. I suggest for our airline, our future and that of the other employee groups we say NO and see the true direction Monuz wants to take the company and the employees.
"In order to mutually seize the opportunities before us today for the benefit of both the Company and the United pilots, we would like to suggest we enter into an early and expedited period of negotiations with the Association for an extension of the current UPA. We generally envision negotiations along the following parameters, subject to final discussions and commitments between the parties:"
If you think this is anymore than an attempt from McKeen to earn his bones with the new boss you are wrong. Isn't he the same guy working to get the first merged contracts from other employee groups. Is it possible he's using the pilots to save his job. I suggest for our airline, our future and that of the other employee groups we say NO and see the true direction Monuz wants to take the company and the employees.
Jay, this time of senior leadership change is a unique opportunity for us. We hope you and the leadership of the Association agree. We look forward to discussing the opportunity presented to usher in a new era and relationship between the Company and our pilots.
So I just want to be clear.... you came on here and chastised me for pushing for a YES vote (which I've explained to you is incorrect. I would never push for a vote either way without seeing and understanding what's being voted on), and you follow that up with "I suggest for our airline, our future and that of the other employee groups we say NO"? You find it so egregious to push for a vote one way or another, yet you.... push for a vote.
Pot, meet kettle.
10-14-2015, 12:23 PM
#129
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
I don't think it has to be an "All or nothing" proposition. The pessemists (and nearly every pilot has a right to be one) see contract negotiations as a chess game where either the company wins, or we win.
But...and that is a big butt (insert favorite political/celebrity joke here): if Oscar is really trying to change the airline for the better, then it is possible it could be win-win.
I'm a skeptic and pessemist on most things: politics, big business, media, education, all levels of government, lawyers and car salesmen, big medicine, entertainment, TV, most religions, and my last refuge, the military, which has been overrun by the aforementioned.
I trust almost no institutions and very few individuals. I like to say "I wouldn't be paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me."
Oscar is the first CEO that made me arch my eyebrows and say "Whatthe? This guy might be different."
I'm cautious and a doubting Thomas, but there is a slight chance this might be mutually beneficial.
If so, I would trust (and hope) the negotiating committee would make it air-tight, so it wouldn't backfire on us.
I'm curious as to what they've got. I also wouldn't have a problem saying "no, thanks," if it is one-sided.
But...and that is a big butt (insert favorite political/celebrity joke here): if Oscar is really trying to change the airline for the better, then it is possible it could be win-win.
I'm a skeptic and pessemist on most things: politics, big business, media, education, all levels of government, lawyers and car salesmen, big medicine, entertainment, TV, most religions, and my last refuge, the military, which has been overrun by the aforementioned.
I trust almost no institutions and very few individuals. I like to say "I wouldn't be paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me."
Oscar is the first CEO that made me arch my eyebrows and say "Whatthe? This guy might be different."
I'm cautious and a doubting Thomas, but there is a slight chance this might be mutually beneficial.
If so, I would trust (and hope) the negotiating committee would make it air-tight, so it wouldn't backfire on us.
I'm curious as to what they've got. I also wouldn't have a problem saying "no, thanks," if it is one-sided.
10-14-2015, 12:34 PM
#130
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
No, actually I was referring to this:
Jay, this time of senior leadership change is a unique opportunity for us. We hope you and the leadership of the Association agree. We look forward to discussing the opportunity presented to usher in a new era and relationship between the Company and our pilots.
So I just want to be clear.... you came on here and chastised me for pushing for a YES vote (which I've explained to you is incorrect. I would never push for a vote either way without seeing and understanding what's being voted on), and you follow that up with "I suggest for our airline, our future and that of the other employee groups we say NO"? You find it so egregious to push for a vote one way or another, yet you.... push for a vote.
Pot, meet kettle.
Jay, this time of senior leadership change is a unique opportunity for us. We hope you and the leadership of the Association agree. We look forward to discussing the opportunity presented to usher in a new era and relationship between the Company and our pilots.
So I just want to be clear.... you came on here and chastised me for pushing for a YES vote (which I've explained to you is incorrect. I would never push for a vote either way without seeing and understanding what's being voted on), and you follow that up with "I suggest for our airline, our future and that of the other employee groups we say NO"? You find it so egregious to push for a vote one way or another, yet you.... push for a vote.
Pot, meet kettle.
I still say no honeymoon for Munoz - he's been on the board and we've already paid for his airline education. I'm surprised he's not talking about on-time performance. Anybody can sound airline smart talking about that - ask Tilton.
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