jsled

Sunvox....are you off your meds again? Are we to expect the big apology like the last time you showed your a$$? . Just wondering

Lerxst

No kiddin, Sled! Joe comes in swingin a pretty big d**k around today. Don't worry though, he says he's smarter than 99 outta 100 of us mere guppy mouth breathers. Maybe you're that lucky one! That'd be sweet...

magneto

The 2006 BK case had nothing to do with what killed Aloha in 2008.
The post above stated why would you strike during bankruptcy. because if you know anything about US bankruptcy law, you would know a union has almost zero leverage during BK and showing you are willing to strike was a way to get leverage. Anyone at ALPA National that worked the case will tell you the strategy worked as planned. No one knows if a majority of AQ pilots would have really striked, but they made the Company believe they would and the Company backed down.

Perhaps you would like to find out how you were played in the UAL BK.
Watch this video:
news + public affairs player: video

here are a few wonderful quotes from it:

GLENN TILTON, CEO, United Airlines: Everybody knows, I think, Chapter 11 serves a useful purpose. That's why the statute exists. It's there for companies to take advantage of when the occasion presents itself.

....

WILLIAM A. BRANDT, Jr.: Because Mr. Tilton was brought in to do what the board and previous management didn't have the guts to do.

HEDRICK SMITH: Which was?

WILLIAM A. BRANDT, Jr.: Take it through bankruptcy and clean it up and confront the unions.

...
JAMES H.M. SPRAYREGEN: I would say that Chapter 11 has become somewhat of a more accepted strategic tool than just companies filing who are about to go out of business, or something like that. And as a result, there is more use of Chapter 11 now than probably 20 years ago.

HEDRICK SMITH: Over time, sophisticated lawyers and financial insiders figured out how to game the bankruptcy law. Their strategy enables companies like United to walk away from costly pension obligations.

...
JAMES H.M. SPRAYREGEN: It may have been, you know, intellectually obvious, but coming up with a process by which to handle adjusting expectations so people would buy into the need to address the pension issue, without it becoming a situation where we would lose what we call the hearts and minds of the employees, was a real challenge and an art.

Flytolive

Really? Aloha's cost structure that they established out of Chapter 11 had nothing to do with them liquidating two years later?

Ever heard of winning the battle and losing the war?

Each case has individual circumstances. In United's case the other majors were actually lobbying against UAL getting ATSB loan guarantees and doing everything they could to push UAL out of business to fix their own problems. When it became obvious United wasn't going to liquidate NWA and DAL filed also.

I will agree that UAL's Master Chairman got completely played by Tilton in BK on the first round of cuts, and they were far too compliant early on which makes a strike strategy nothing but academic. It wasn't going to happen with that gang or the United pilot group for that matter and by the second round of cuts it was too late.

gofastmopar

Sunvox,
Thank you for your effort in doing the math, I was waiting for it...
I have to agree with you, and when given the vote mine will be a resounding"Yes".

SpecialTracking

The only math you can currently see is the rumored pay raise. Do you have all the math facts to make a reasoned decision?

WhiskeyJet

This has been a fun thread to read. Surprisingly thoughtful for a pilot forum (mostly). Let's see the details when they come out. I know the topic has drifted away from reserve rules, but I'll just toss my opinion on that out there. I'm a global reserve, and yeah the rules suck hard. No improvement in this extension does not dissuade me however as I don't think much will change in section 6 either, at least for some appreciable time.
But those who say screw the reserves, screw the LOA25 victims should realize that taking care of each other is the foundation of unionism. Not taking care of each other is what has created an atmosphere of distrust among subsets of pilot groups. Let's not do the devil's work for him, so to speak.

Flytolive

I agree. Here is a thought provoking post from the other forum that I think frames the issues well.

Negotiating environment:
• Company ability to pay:
o Unprecedented and growing company profits,
o Unprecedented and growing industry profits,
o Unprecedented financial stability for the company and industry,
• General case for improvements:
o Unprecedented low pilot share of revenue,
o Shrinking pilot share (revenue growth outpacing wage growth),
o Tightening pilot labor pool,
o Shared sacrifice, shared rewards
• Political environment:
o Trending political recognition that labor should have a larger share
• Motivation:
o Labor peace,
o FRMS,
o MOU22 replacement,
o Scope choke

Discussion:
• Does the AIP reflect full value for the conditions?
• Should the company receive a discount for early agreement? If so, how much?
• Windows close?
• Should the AIP be weighed differently than an extension achieved through full Section 6?
• Should the AIP be accepted as an adequate step in a broader strategy?

Probe

There is not now, nor has there ever been, industry stability. Our industry moves to the whims of the economy. Our current economic environment is transitory.

The current shortage of pilots will be extremely short lived. There are tens of thousands of english speaking pilots from other countries. Converting a license to an FAA license is a piece of cake. The regionals are just figuring this out, but the aforementioned pilots won't come to work for Mesa. They will come to work for us.

We need to keep our heads about us now that we are living in the boom times. A boom is just that. A short lived impulse.

Regularguy

This stuff goes on and on and on...

The only real issue here is this:

If we say NO to the AIP will it pay off in the future?

Is there a nice fat turkey in the bush and is this current bird in our collective hands only a dove with a quarter sized piece f meat?