The intern program, back in the day, was based on the idea UAL would essentially look for the best people from university flight programs. At the time the absolute minimum experience for 121 carriers was multi-engine commercial and instrument certificates. UALs min flight time was 350 hours (which dated back to a lawsuit in the mid 70s) at the time. Most of the interns who were hired after their semester of free work and close scrutiny (think daily non-stop interview) had more than the minimum time.

I worked with several interns, OEd a few and without exception they were all outstanding pilots and very sharp people. Did they have enough experience to step right into the left seat? No, Most of the new hires today are far more experienced than at any other time in UALs history. Most today forget the beloved Dubinsky was hired with basically no flight time.

What am I writing about? Let your "experience" prejudices go and enjoy the ride.

Interesting question. I can only imagine that yes, the standards have changed. I was an intern. I was hired low time (3000 hours) at a very young age. The new hires that we have now mostly have 6000+ with jet pic time. Generally lots of it. Many interns were hired in the early to mid 90's with minimal time (1000?) but at this point you aren't flying with those guys as they are all Captains/senior f/o's? Many, in fact, are in leadership roles within ALPA (ORD Cap rep?) After roughly 2001, UAL didn't hire many until 2008?, so perhaps you're flying with some of the guys that have been furloughed a couple of times?

So, who are the guys you are flying with?

Not sure about the leverage of interns in today's hiring prospectus.

Speaking to the influence of the hiring process. Of course it made a difference. It was a 3-6 month long interview. How could it not? If an applicant makes a positive impression on a decision maker, how could that not make a difference? There was no quota (that I know of) for a minimum number of intern hires. There most certainly wasn't a lawsuit about it.

So, have you flown with sharp and not so sharp regional guys (which most interns fall within)? How about sharp and not so sharp military pilots? Cargo pilots? 91 fellas? 135 guys? Me too.

Scott

Like you, all types. Mostly very sharp folks. But sometimes in just discussing the industry and the profession, I get the weirdest comments from former interns. I just get the impression that their dues paying process was much shorter than those who were out there busting their humps. The FO's I fly with are all very-very sharp. Most have had significant time in the regionals and have great weather and instrument experience, and their procedures are very sound.

It's more of a subtle nuance that I notice that while an applicant thinks they are getting a leg up on the competition by getting an internship, they may be short changing their actual pilot education in terms of experience. With quick upgrade times it may be wiser for the company to focus on experience in the future. I am sure the internship program has its merits.

I totally agree with what you wrote. Perspective is hard won and it absolutely matters.

There are multiple paths to get here. We can all throw out the outliers re: guys/gals that we didn't think were prepared to be airline pilots. I have my preferences, and I'm sure you have yours. In the end, we all got here, continue to meet standards, and continue to pull (we all hope) on the same end of the rope.

Scott

Your going to find that 10% of the group cause 90% of any problems. True in any business. Most guys you fly with are professionals and act that way.

agreed.

Also, the fact that the scabs are getting old now and retiring in droves is really helpful. Also helpful is that they are mostly in one fleet.

A good discussion. However, it should be noted that a discussion about experience, former interns, and whether they have short changed their aviation education includes Scott. When it really really counted, he made a split second decision and the only call that kept a plane load of people alive and probably saved United Airlines based on its tenuous financial state at the time.

The discussion about knowledge vs experience is as old as aviation. There are some great pilots who are relatively low timers and some horrible pilots who have been here 30 years. There are incredible aviators coming out of the military, and some from the same branch who really struggle to see "the big picture". I've given IOE to former regional check airman who I didn't think I was going to be able to pass, and flown with some brand new pilots who water my eyes every time they touch the stick.

As the "pilot shortage" grows, airlines large and small are going to have to get smarter about how to find and hire pilots who have more going for them than a big number in the "total flight hours" column.

Return of the sim ride perhaps?

I never agreed with the removal of the sim ride.

1. It makes it an HR focused process and not a flight ops focused process.

2. It removes the pilot evaluator from the process at a very critical time. We want to have confidence in the applicant's ability to get into and out of the training program.

3. We really want to know how the applicant flies.


I do agree that airlines will need to get smarter on their hiring processes. What will drive that is prolonged IOE. If we have people not making it through IOE in a reasonable time frame, or not coming off of probation due to lack of Captain endorsements then the airlines will have to get smarter.


For me personally, I really am glad I had to cut my teeth flying 135 charter and commuters/regionals before getting hired. The weather experience and the judgement I gained from that was very valuable. I don't look at it as numbers in a log book. I look at it is opportunities to make decisions, decide on an outcome, execute a plan, and learn from it. Hours in a logbook in a static/controlled environment don't mean much to me. If it were my airline, I would look at a logbook, engage in conversation to make sure the logbook matches the experience presented and then figure out what he/she learned along the way that they feel was beneficial to them, and then fly the simulator to see if it all matches up.

I guess you can say. More flight ops, and less HR.

100 million percent. Actually I'd love to see an expansion of the previous SIM portion