Originally Posted by dera

So there can be apples/apples comparison, what %age gain are you using for your 401K? 2m sounds low?

Originally Posted by ACMIguy

UPS has has been my goal for almost a decade. I Interviewed and was offered a heavy class starting soon. Only problem is that I’m fairly senior at Atlas (19% on the seniority list out of 2500). I’m a 767 captain that lives in base (CVG) and bid mostly 4-5 day trips with 4-5 days off in between. I’m rarely gone from home
more than 2 nights. Sometimes 3. I usually fly one leg a day and layover for 24-30 hours. It’s almost all boring/easy domestic flying. With the new CBA I’ll make about $240-260k as an 11 year captain. My QOL is currently EXCEPTIONAL compared to other 121 gigs I’ve had in the past. Our retirement is subpar however. We were just given a 10% match and 2% DC. So it’s better than it was but still not as good as other majors. But I’m conservative and max out my 20.5k by September/October.
The majority of our pilots that leave go to UPS/FDX. I’m in my early 40s and I’ve done the math. Based on min guarantee alone I’d make 6.3M over 22 years at UPS vs. 5.7M at Atlas. That assumes a year 7 upgrade. My 401k at Atlas would have about 2M in it at retirement. I have no idea what a combined 401k/pension at UPS would look like. I imagine it would be very lucrative.

I’m having an extremely difficult time coming to terms with leaving 5Y for 5X. Family is of little help because they don’t understand the ACMI stigma. But it does sound like UPS pilots really work when they’re on the road. Atlas has always had a lot of downtime due to the many customers we operate for that create scheduling gaps and inefficiencies. I’m not saying I’ve grown lazy over time but I’ve gotten used to a very relaxed schedule. Even on the 747 it wasn’t uncommon to sit in HNL or SYD for 3-4 days before heading to Asia. Plus if I decide to move or change bases we have gateway travel which for me is huge just in peace of mind even though it’s on days off.

Are UPS layovers typically short on the heavy fleet? How is the QOL as a commuter? Living in Cincinnati I’d obviously want SDF as a base because it’s a two hour drive vs jumpseating to ANC.

I’ve already turned down AA because I’ve done the math and am past the break even point with them (5.3M). And while Atlas has lost about 450 pilots in the last six months they just ordered 4 new 747-8Fs and 4 777Fs so I don’t know what the hell is going on. They claim to have customers for them already. How they’ll staff them is another story.

Basically I’m living the life I’ve always wanted but on the same pay I’d make as a UPS FO. I could use some guidance.

Originally Posted by fightandflight

As a UPS FO I’ll start by telling you your math could be pretty far off. I made significantly more than you (granted I’m including premium payments that likely won’t be around forever…but that could be offset by the fact I could upgrade to Captain in the next year). That causes a ripple effect in the form of increased B plan deposits and quick 401k maxes. Add that to the A plan (defined benefit) and whatever contractual gains we get and we could be talking an even bigger spread come retirement considering how long you have.

All that to say - I’m usually gone 10-14 days a month because I like to get my trips knocked out and I live in Louisville. You would practically live in base as CVG is an easy commute. Money isn’t everything and it sounds like you have a pretty good gig there, but the ACMI business model would never leave me entirely confident that the “good times” would continue. Tough call, but I’ve been at UPS about 5 years and I think life is pretty great. I’d make the jump for the simple fact that I’d rather retire at 60 with more. Good luck, I hope to see you here.

Originally Posted by Swedish Blender

I don't think you'd be in ANC 2 years. You are equipment locked, not base locked. Depending on your age you may get SDF right away. If not, you could probably be awarded it in the next vacancy bid (about every 6 months right now with an effective date of about another 6 months at the latest) so I would believe no more than 1 year max in ANC.

If you aren't tied to the CVG area, you could take one of the light twins when able and fly morning or afternoon turns and be home everyday.

It really just depends on you. Time left vs money vs your QOL choice.

Originally Posted by ACMIguy

The Fidelity planning tool allows you to select Average Market, below avg and significantly below average. I default to Below Average return. I don’t know the actual percentage.

Originally Posted by tnkrdrvr

We have the same Fidelity planning tool. You probably already know this, but the higher the assumed rate of return, the greater difference higher contributions early on make. In other words, the difference between putting $60k/yr vs $45k/yr gets significantly larger as higher rates are assumed, but obviously that’s an unknown. Our health insurance options are very good and should be included in your calculations. Finally, you should look at LTD. Ours is paid for through the union and pays (tax free) 60% of your current min guarantee. Additionally, you continue to accrue good years for pension purposes. A 20 yr pension, assuming you retire a Capt, would be in the mid-$90k/yr range for the rest of your life or longer, depending on how you take it and how long you live.

Your current gig is very comfortable and giving that up for the promise of something better isn’t an easy call. I will say our management pilot ranks are filled with guys who had sweet gigs at World and other top shelf ACMI carriers who declined UPS earlier in their career because of the “golden handcuffs”. No one here can predict the future, but UPS is a pretty good bet. Atlas is Atlas.

Originally Posted by tnkrdrvr

We have the same Fidelity planning tool. You probably already know this, but the higher the assumed rate of return, the greater difference higher contributions early on make. In other words, the difference between putting $60k/yr vs $45k/yr gets significantly larger as higher rates are assumed, but obviously that’s an unknown. Our health insurance options are very good and should be included in your calculations. Finally, you should look at LTD. Ours is paid for through the union and pays (tax free) 60% of your current min guarantee. Additionally, you continue to accrue good years for pension purposes. A 20 yr pension, assuming you retire a Capt, would be in the mid-$90k/yr range for the rest of your life or longer, depending on how you take it and how long you live.

Your current gig is very comfortable and giving that up for the promise of something better isn’t an easy call. I will say our management pilot ranks are filled with guys who had sweet gigs at World and other top shelf ACMI carriers who declined UPS earlier in their career because of the “golden handcuffs”. No one here can predict the future, but UPS is a pretty good bet. Atlas is Atlas.

Originally Posted by ACMIguy

Very well put….Atlas is Atlas and will never change. If you’re going to be treated as a necessary burden you might as well be well compensated for it. And you are correct. I didn’t take into account the pension in addition to the 401k or the LTD. Atlas recently promised us LTD but from what I’ve heard are having trouble finding a provider willing to underwrite them. For years senior Atlas guys would medical out at 62-63 and eat up their accrued long term sick leave at 60% pay as a makeshift early retirement plan. Now that trend is coming back to bite us.