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Old 08-08-2018, 09:57 AM
  #3411  
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Originally Posted by VirginEskimo View Post
Their secret sauce is one part competent management and five parts running Aloha Airlines out of business and having a monopoly for ten years.
HA Monopoly? Inter island, yes. West Coast and International, a hard fought ongoing battle.
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:08 AM
  #3412  
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Originally Posted by lowflying View Post
Sorry, but you sound like someone whoís married to complete ahole but as long as you can keep driving the nice car to the mall and using the credit card to buy shoes and drink cocktails with all your friends at lunch youíll put up with it.



AK isnít the worst place but the only thing the company cares about is that planes continue to move. It blows my mind to see what horrendous and worthless pairings the pilots and scheduling committee will put up with when all it takes is a few guys calling in sick/fatigue to get them changed.



Now the company is telling us that they are coming after our hotels and guess what? The union will put out a stern letter and the pilots will complain on the forums but the planes will keep moving because really, itís an easy job and life is good...


You donít know half the story.

He still visits the Fractional forums to take cheap shots at former employees.

Real stand up guy.

Beware.


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Old 08-08-2018, 01:37 PM
  #3413  
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Point taken. Their long haul expansion has been extremely impressive. I just hate seeing their success analyzed withoit any mention of the demise of Aloha Airlines (where Mesa Air Group basically took a $300,000,000 loss so that HAL could be the sole remaining inter island carrier)

Originally Posted by 305808 View Post
HA Monopoly? Inter island, yes. West Coast and International, a hard fought ongoing battle.
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Old 08-08-2018, 01:41 PM
  #3414  
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Originally Posted by VirginEskimo View Post
Point taken. Their long haul expansion has been extremely impressive. I just hate seeing their success analyzed withoit any mention of the demise of Aloha Airlines (where Mesa Air Group basically took a $300,000,000 loss so that HAL could be the sole remaining inter island carrier)
Yeah, that put JO into BK. But he did it to himself.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:03 PM
  #3415  
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Originally Posted by denverpilot7 View Post
Tried the search function for my question but couldn't find anything. Any thought on what questions Alaska asks at job fairs?
The same ones every other airline asks.

Seriously - airline interviews are all the same. The only ones that are different are the ones like FedEx and Southwest that have a CRM component.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:08 PM
  #3416  
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Originally Posted by MusicPilot View Post
Iím pretty sure youíre not in those ďanyoneísĒ shoes.
Not sure why you think that. But now I'm genuinely curious about what shoes you think I'm in.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:29 PM
  #3417  
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Originally Posted by Reactivity View Post
Not sure why you think that. But now I'm genuinely curious about what shoes you think I'm in.
Instead of constantly using your nebulous and mysterious and apparently woefully unfortunate background as a reason for discounting everything people write on here, why don't you just tell us your situation and clear it up once and for all so we can all stop having to hear your sanctimonious rants about why we shouldn't be complaining?
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:18 AM
  #3418  
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Originally Posted by echelon View Post
Instead of constantly using your nebulous and mysterious and apparently woefully unfortunate background as a reason for discounting everything people write on here, why don't you just tell us your situation and clear it up once and for all so we can all stop having to hear your sanctimonious rants about why we shouldn't be complaining?
Oh, you mean my "sanctimonious rants" in response to all of the other sanctimonious rants about why Alaska is "like, the worst EVAR!"? That?

OK. It's not a quick one-liner, though. It covers about 19 of the 22 years I've been in this screwy business and requires a little bit of history. Still, I'll try to keep it as short as I can.

I started a job I loved in 1999. I interviewed at Alaska (because if there was any other place I thought I'd like to be, it was Alaska Airlines), unsuccessfully, in 2002. I reapplied as soon as I could, but never got another call. Later, life circumstances prevented me from moving from what was a good job to Alaska, where it would have taken at least five years to reach the same income level and longer than that to completely make up what I'd be losing in the move, so I didn't pursue Alaska for several years. However, after a few more years, unforeseen changes in the job I thought I could make a career of made it necessary to look at other options.

I've had an application on file at Alaska since late 2012, when the pay rates came up to a point where that move made sense again. But despite a couple thousand hours of jet PIC with significant SEAK experience, multiple internal recommendations, and attendance at multiple recruiting events (no easy feat when you don't have jumpseat privileges), the phone didn't ring.

The company that did call (and this is where it starts to get really interesting) was ABX Air. Their history is too long to detail here when I'm trying to be brief, but the short version is that Airborne Express, the #3 express delivery company in the US behind UPS and FedEx (with pay and lifestyle to match), was bought by DHL in 2003 and shut down 5 years later, leaving about 600 of its 800 pilots out of work and the company near bankruptcy, resulting in a 2009 contract with severe concessions (namely giving the company an additional 31 work days per year and significant pay cuts), which they are still operating under nine years later, despite the contract being amendable almost four years ago.

So why on Earth would I go there? Two things: First, I needed to move, nobody else was calling, and checking the heavy (767), international, and part 121 boxes would put me in a better position to go anywhere else later. Second, ATSG (the parent company of ABX, created when ABX was broken up into its component parts after the DHL acquisition, and this is also important later) is one of the two companies, along with Atlas, contracted by Amazon to create its cargo network. I saw significant potential for growth at ABX with the Amazon contract, and at the time ABX pilots were making double guarantee while they tried to catch up on hiring. One captain is said to have made north of $600K one year.

Here is where it gets ugly. It involves some of those things you don't learn about until after you're already there.

ABX had deliberately not hired for several months during the Amazon expansion. There were a number of pilots still on furlough after the 2008-09 collapse, and ABX management steadfastly refused to bring them back, waiting until their recall rights expired before beginning to hire again. Labor/management relations at ABX have not been anything resembling good going way back to the Airborne Express days (and it involves the phrase "scum-sucking scorpions" allegedly being hurled by the ABX CEO at a group of new-hires eating in a local restaurant of which the CEO was part owner), and this did not help.

ABX pilots were making money hand over fist, but weren't home much because they were being junior manned constantly. The contract allows crew scheduling to junior man up to five days in advance when you're already on an assignment, with no limit on the length of that assignment, and you cannot refuse other than for medical appointments, illness or fatigue. After six junior man days in a year, the company does have to give you back one day for every one assigned (referred to as "D6 days"), but what ended up happening was that a pilot would tell scheduling where to use those days, and then scheduling would junior man them right back onto the affected trip. Pilots were piling up 10, 20, 30 or more D6 days as a result. They were owed the time, but they could never take it.

Meanwhile, again as a result of the addition of daytime Amazon flying mixed in with the mostly nighttime DHL flying that dominates their schedule (they're still flying for DHL along with a number of other ACMI carriers, but DHL no longer does intra-US express delivery), the union and scheduling had agreed on a plan that would help ease day-night transitions. ABX management refused to implement it, which the union viewed as a status quo violation of the contract requirement to build schedules with consideration for day-night transitions.

Then the company was refusing to give newly-upgraded captains their vacation time, insisting instead that they simply be paid for it. Again, status quo violation of the contract.

Finally, the company issued a memo with a procedure making it more difficult to schedule D6 days. Status quo violation of the contract.

That was the last straw.

ABX pilots went on strike in late November of 2016. A judge did issue a temporary restraining order, but it's worth noting that before they even entered the courtroom, two of the three issues that triggered the strike had been resolved by the company. The company knew they'd get slapped by the judge if they went in without fixing those things, as they'd already been smacked down when they sued the union in an effort to force pilots to bid open time in direct contravention of specific contract language. The third issue (regarding D6 days) was sent to mediation and resolved a few months later. Pilots didn't get their days off, but they did get some hefty checks.

During the strike, the other Teamsters-represented ACMI carriers on the ramp honored the picket line. Many pilots at ALPA-represented ATI (another subsidiary of ATSG, acquired a few years before), however, continued operating as they were advised by their union leadership that this was "informational picketing" by ABX.

Of the 20 767s that ATSG was contracted to operate for Amazon, 10 were to go to ABX and 10 to ATI. ABX now has 6, and ATI has 14. Why? During the ATSG earnings conference call in February of 2017, the CEO's words were, "ATI, whose pilots are represented by ALPA, and did not support the strike, will crew all of the remaining aircraft we deploy for Amazon." This was not business. This was personal, and he was using an earnings conference call to make a statement.

Despite nearly four years of negotiations, and ATSG earning record revenues and profits, we're still operating under that concessionary contract from 2009. The company has shown up to negotiations totally unprepared to negotiate despite the mediator's instructions, and has tried to reopen sections that were already TA'd. We just TA'd one more section at the end of July after about 18 months of zero progress under the new company president, who, by the way, lists among his career accomplishments the bankrupting of both Comair and Southern Air. And he's been threatening furloughs since the day he walked in the door.

In terms of pay rates in the new contract, Kalitta's contract from December of 2016 is the current mark. The company is willing to give us those rates in exchange for major concessions on work rules, junior assignment, and reassignment. We're not inclined to give those up, as our junior man and reassignment pay are both intended to motivate management to properly staff the airline. It only hurts them if they don't. They paid out several million in junior man and reassignment pay in 2016 as a result of severe understaffing.

But then comes the whipsaw. ATI, our sister airline under ATSG, signed a contract with rates nowhere near Kalitta's (and even Omni's!) and work rules that simply aren't that great. Many of us encouraged them not to take it, both because they could do better in this environment, and knowing that management would use it to try to push us in the same direction. And we were right. In negotiations, they've been trying to push us toward a contract that looks more like ATI's. Currently, first year pay is $42,500. Second year is around $82K, and third year is $89K. The overtime has largely dried up, so you're not going to do much better than that. The pay rates we're pushing for in the new contract, which would put us in line with the mark set by Kalitta, would be around 20% higher than that. We get a 7.5% DC plan contribution from the company.

Our flying continues to shrink, with DHL taking one of the ABX aircraft that they lease to be operated by DHL in the Middle East, retiring another that is too broke to fix, DHL giving one of our cities to another ACMI carrier because they wanted more capacity than a -200 and the company won't give us another -300, and companies who have been chartering us for years leasing their own 767s from Cargo Aircraft Management, another ATSG subsidiary. (CAM was formed by taking the 767s that ABX owned outright and then leasing them back to ABX, with evidence pointing to our lease rates being substantially higher than the rest of the industry. The ATSG CEO is also the ABX CEO, so that was an easy negotiation. It's a way for them to pull money out of ABX to CAM, which makes CAM look like a money tree while making ABX look unprofitable. The company also buys old passenger 767s, converts them for cargo, and leases them - many to our direct competitors like Amerijet and the composite entity of SAS/Aloha Air Cargo/Northern Air Cargo.) I've gained about 50 spots on the bid list in 18 months thanks to nearly everybody on the lower half of the FO list applying anywhere and everywhere and having some success at leaving for greener pastures, but the number of flying lines keeps shrinking to where I may or may not be able to get one in a given month, and there are no new business prospects in sight. As anyone who commutes will tell you, commuting on reserve is no picnic. Even our flying lines include a number of what we affectionately call "Cincinnati appreciation days", which are unassigned work days. You get first choice of open flying to fill those days, and crew scheduling will fill those before using reserves, but there isn't always something that fits in there, so even when you have a flying line, you may still end up spending time in one of the local hotels on your own dime.

The average age of our seniority list is around 55. Captains are retiring quickly. (Some have even left for other opportunities.) That should mean a lot of upgrades. But with the transfer of 40% of our expected Amazon flying to the ATI whipsaw and the shrinking amount of flying elsewhere, we haven't seen an upgrade since early 2017. The company president was recently heard saying he wanted to surplus four captains. The CEO shot that idea down, thankfully. The most junior captain has been with the company for over 20 years. We're at the point where some FOs are reaching retirement age. A large number of FOs have been with the company for over 20 years. A few have the seniority to hold captain, but have preferred to keep the benefits of being at the top of the list in their remaining years. The rest of those most senior FOs may or may not get the opportunity to upgrade before they retire.

On the plus side, and I mention this because I know Alaska pilots will appreciate it, our current contract does have a scope clause. It states that ABX is the only ATSG company allowed to operate widebody aircraft for DHL, and it may be the only reason we're still here. The company could easily move all of our flying to ATI without it. Management would like to eliminate the scope clause in our next contract. Again, we're not so inclined. But scope won't protect us from being shrunk out of existence.

I am guardedly optimistic that there is something on the horizon because the company continues to hire, even though the president keeps threatening furloughs. But the word is out that this is not the place to go. Some are offered class dates and then don't show, a few have left the company during training, and a few more FOs up and down the seniority list find better opportunities elsewhere every month (and a few have gone to Alaska/Virgin in the past year).

This has taken entirely too long to write, and I fear I may have gone a little long and scattered toward the end as I've tried to make sure I didn't leave out anything significant. But you asked for it, so you got it, and I hope some of the more vocal Alaska detractors here can better understand why I'd rather have your problems than mine. I see some similarities in some of the problems we both face, but in short, at Alaska, I'd live in domicile (soon if not immediately), make significantly more money with about twice the retirement in percentage terms (and more than 2x in absolute terms), and scope or no scope, I wouldn't really be too concerned that I might be unemployed soon. When it comes to improving situations and fixing problems, Alaska is a much better starting point for doing those things.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:15 AM
  #3419  
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Originally Posted by Reactivity View Post
Oh, you mean my "sanctimonious rants" in response to all of the other sanctimonious rants about why Alaska is "like, the worst EVAR!"? That?

OK. It's not a quick one-liner, though. It covers about 19 of the 22 years I've been in this screwy business and requires a little bit of history. Still, I'll try to keep it as short as I can.

I started a job I loved in 1999. I interviewed at Alaska (because if there was any other place I thought I'd like to be, it was Alaska Airlines), unsuccessfully, in 2002. I reapplied as soon as I could, but never got another call. Later, life circumstances prevented me from moving from what was a good job to Alaska, where it would have taken at least five years to reach the same income level and longer than that to completely make up what I'd be losing in the move, so I didn't pursue Alaska for several years. However, after a few more years, unforeseen changes in the job I thought I could make a career of made it necessary to look at other options.

I've had an application on file at Alaska since late 2012, when the pay rates came up to a point where that move made sense again. But despite a couple thousand hours of jet PIC with significant SEAK experience, multiple internal recommendations, and attendance at multiple recruiting events (no easy feat when you don't have jumpseat privileges), the phone didn't ring.

The company that did call (and this is where it starts to get really interesting) was ABX Air. Their history is too long to detail here when I'm trying to be brief, but the short version is that Airborne Express, the #3 express delivery company in the US behind UPS and FedEx (with pay and lifestyle to match), was bought by DHL in 2003 and shut down 5 years later, leaving about 600 of its 800 pilots out of work and the company near bankruptcy, resulting in a 2009 contract with severe concessions (namely giving the company an additional 31 work days per year and significant pay cuts), which they are still operating under nine years later, despite the contract being amendable almost four years ago.

So why on Earth would I go there? Two things: First, I needed to move, nobody else was calling, and checking the heavy (767), international, and part 121 boxes would put me in a better position to go anywhere else later. Second, ATSG (the parent company of ABX, created when ABX was broken up into its component parts after the DHL acquisition, and this is also important later) is one of the two companies, along with Atlas, contracted by Amazon to create its cargo network. I saw significant potential for growth at ABX with the Amazon contract, and at the time ABX pilots were making double guarantee while they tried to catch up on hiring. One captain is said to have made north of $600K one year.

Here is where it gets ugly. It involves some of those things you don't learn about until after you're already there.

ABX had deliberately not hired for several months during the Amazon expansion. There were a number of pilots still on furlough after the 2008-09 collapse, and ABX management steadfastly refused to bring them back, waiting until their recall rights expired before beginning to hire again. Labor/management relations at ABX have not been anything resembling good going way back to the Airborne Express days (and it involves the phrase "scum-sucking scorpions" allegedly being hurled by the ABX CEO at a group of new-hires eating in a local restaurant of which the CEO was part owner), and this did not help.

ABX pilots were making money hand over fist, but weren't home much because they were being junior manned constantly. The contract allows crew scheduling to junior man up to five days in advance when you're already on an assignment, with no limit on the length of that assignment, and you cannot refuse other than for medical appointments, illness or fatigue. After six junior man days in a year, the company does have to give you back one day for every one assigned (referred to as "D6 days"), but what ended up happening was that a pilot would tell scheduling where to use those days, and then scheduling would junior man them right back onto the affected trip. Pilots were piling up 10, 20, 30 or more D6 days as a result. They were owed the time, but they could never take it.

Meanwhile, again as a result of the addition of daytime Amazon flying mixed in with the mostly nighttime DHL flying that dominates their schedule (they're still flying for DHL along with a number of other ACMI carriers, but DHL no longer does intra-US express delivery), the union and scheduling had agreed on a plan that would help ease day-night transitions. ABX management refused to implement it, which the union viewed as a status quo violation of the contract requirement to build schedules with consideration for day-night transitions.

Then the company was refusing to give newly-upgraded captains their vacation time, insisting instead that they simply be paid for it. Again, status quo violation of the contract.

Finally, the company issued a memo with a procedure making it more difficult to schedule D6 days. Status quo violation of the contract.

That was the last straw.

ABX pilots went on strike in late November of 2016. A judge did issue a temporary restraining order, but it's worth noting that before they even entered the courtroom, two of the three issues that triggered the strike had been resolved by the company. The company knew they'd get slapped by the judge if they went in without fixing those things, as they'd already been smacked down when they sued the union in an effort to force pilots to bid open time in direct contravention of specific contract language. The third issue (regarding D6 days) was sent to mediation and resolved a few months later. Pilots didn't get their days off, but they did get some hefty checks.

During the strike, the other Teamsters-represented ACMI carriers on the ramp honored the picket line. Many pilots at ALPA-represented ATI (another subsidiary of ATSG, acquired a few years before), however, continued operating as they were advised by their union leadership that this was "informational picketing" by ABX.

Of the 20 767s that ATSG was contracted to operate for Amazon, 10 were to go to ABX and 10 to ATI. ABX now has 6, and ATI has 14. Why? During the ATSG earnings conference call in February of 2017, the CEO's words were, "ATI, whose pilots are represented by ALPA, and did not support the strike, will crew all of the remaining aircraft we deploy for Amazon." This was not business. This was personal, and he was using an earnings conference call to make a statement.

Despite nearly four years of negotiations, and ATSG earning record revenues and profits, we're still operating under that concessionary contract from 2009. The company has shown up to negotiations totally unprepared to negotiate despite the mediator's instructions, and has tried to reopen sections that were already TA'd. We just TA'd one more section at the end of July after about 18 months of zero progress under the new company president, who, by the way, lists among his career accomplishments the bankrupting of both Comair and Southern Air. And he's been threatening furloughs since the day he walked in the door.

In terms of pay rates in the new contract, Kalitta's contract from December of 2016 is the current mark. The company is willing to give us those rates in exchange for major concessions on work rules, junior assignment, and reassignment. We're not inclined to give those up, as our junior man and reassignment pay are both intended to motivate management to properly staff the airline. It only hurts them if they don't. They paid out several million in junior man and reassignment pay in 2016 as a result of severe understaffing.

But then comes the whipsaw. ATI, our sister airline under ATSG, signed a contract with rates nowhere near Kalitta's (and even Omni's!) and work rules that simply aren't that great. Many of us encouraged them not to take it, both because they could do better in this environment, and knowing that management would use it to try to push us in the same direction. And we were right. In negotiations, they've been trying to push us toward a contract that looks more like ATI's. Currently, first year pay is $42,500. Second year is around $82K, and third year is $89K. The overtime has largely dried up, so you're not going to do much better than that. The pay rates we're pushing for in the new contract, which would put us in line with the mark set by Kalitta, would be around 20% higher than that. We get a 7.5% DC plan contribution from the company.

Our flying continues to shrink, with DHL taking one of the ABX aircraft that they lease to be operated by DHL in the Middle East, retiring another that is too broke to fix, DHL giving one of our cities to another ACMI carrier because they wanted more capacity than a -200 and the company won't give us another -300, and companies who have been chartering us for years leasing their own 767s from Cargo Aircraft Management, another ATSG subsidiary. (CAM was formed by taking the 767s that ABX owned outright and then leasing them back to ABX, with evidence pointing to our lease rates being substantially higher than the rest of the industry. The ATSG CEO is also the ABX CEO, so that was an easy negotiation. It's a way for them to pull money out of ABX to CAM, which makes CAM look like a money tree while making ABX look unprofitable. The company also buys old passenger 767s, converts them for cargo, and leases them - many to our direct competitors like Amerijet and the composite entity of SAS/Aloha Air Cargo/Northern Air Cargo.) I've gained about 50 spots on the bid list in 18 months thanks to nearly everybody on the lower half of the FO list applying anywhere and everywhere and having some success at leaving for greener pastures, but the number of flying lines keeps shrinking to where I may or may not be able to get one in a given month, and there are no new business prospects in sight. As anyone who commutes will tell you, commuting on reserve is no picnic. Even our flying lines include a number of what we affectionately call "Cincinnati appreciation days", which are unassigned work days. You get first choice of open flying to fill those days, and crew scheduling will fill those before using reserves, but there isn't always something that fits in there, so even when you have a flying line, you may still end up spending time in one of the local hotels on your own dime.

The average age of our seniority list is around 55. Captains are retiring quickly. (Some have even left for other opportunities.) That should mean a lot of upgrades. But with the transfer of 40% of our expected Amazon flying to the ATI whipsaw and the shrinking amount of flying elsewhere, we haven't seen an upgrade since early 2017. The company president was recently heard saying he wanted to surplus four captains. The CEO shot that idea down, thankfully. The most junior captain has been with the company for over 20 years. We're at the point where some FOs are reaching retirement age. A large number of FOs have been with the company for over 20 years. A few have the seniority to hold captain, but have preferred to keep the benefits of being at the top of the list in their remaining years. The rest of those most senior FOs may or may not get the opportunity to upgrade before they retire.

On the plus side, and I mention this because I know Alaska pilots will appreciate it, our current contract does have a scope clause. It states that ABX is the only ATSG company allowed to operate widebody aircraft for DHL, and it may be the only reason we're still here. The company could easily move all of our flying to ATI without it. Management would like to eliminate the scope clause in our next contract. Again, we're not so inclined. But scope won't protect us from being shrunk out of existence.

I am guardedly optimistic that there is something on the horizon because the company continues to hire, even though the president keeps threatening furloughs. But the word is out that this is not the place to go. Some are offered class dates and then don't show, a few have left the company during training, and a few more FOs up and down the seniority list find better opportunities elsewhere every month (and a few have gone to Alaska/Virgin in the past year).

This has taken entirely too long to write, and I fear I may have gone a little long and scattered toward the end as I've tried to make sure I didn't leave out anything significant. But you asked for it, so you got it, and I hope some of the more vocal Alaska detractors here can better understand why I'd rather have your problems than mine. I see some similarities in some of the problems we both face, but in short, at Alaska, I'd live in domicile (soon if not immediately), make significantly more money with about twice the retirement in percentage terms (and more than 2x in absolute terms), and scope or no scope, I wouldn't really be too concerned that I might be unemployed soon. When it comes to improving situations and fixing problems, Alaska is a much better starting point for doing those things.
Wow. As a former DHL Airways/Astar pilot, that was facinating. Seriously. I hate it for you brother... genuinely... but, for any of the pilots on that seniority list that signed the 09 contract.... Karma.

And, you are correct, working at Alaska is infinitely better than ANY airline with DHL on it. That being said, weíre not comparing down. ďIndustry StandardĒ in the cargo/ACMI world is a handful of players with only two carriers (FedEx/UPS) with wages and workrules comparable to the legacy pax carriers.

Two truths can exist at the same.
We are a good place to work. AND
In almost every way we are sliding
further behind our contemporaries.

So, there are a lot of folks angry and with anger, in this industry, usually comes hyperbole, on message boards.
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:26 AM
  #3420  
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Originally Posted by lowflying View Post
Sorry, but you sound like someone whoís married to complete ahole but as long as you can keep driving the nice car to the mall and using the credit card to buy shoes and drink cocktails with all your friends at lunch youíll put up with it.

AK isnít the worst place but the only thing the company cares about is that planes continue to move. It blows my mind to see what horrendous and worthless pairings the pilots and scheduling committee will put up with when all it takes is a few guys calling in sick/fatigue to get them changed.

Now the company is telling us that they are coming after our hotels and guess what? The union will put out a stern letter and the pilots will complain on the forums but the planes will keep moving because really, itís an easy job and life is good...
If my life changes enough, Iíll leave. Iíve had a scheduling nightmare the last two days that involved some blatant grievance issues. Iíll fight for changes in 2020 until a better offer comes along. I donít do anything outside of our JCBA and PRB and refuse to. What else can you do? Iím not gonna lose sleep over stuff I canít immediately control, I can merely not contribute to the false economy AAG has because people let them get away with things they shouldnít.
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