Contract negotiations
11-03-2025 | 04:39 PM
#3071
FO
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 182
Likes: 1
To read every post explaining why G4 is screwed would take some time, however it should be required reading if you want to apply there. the TD;DR version is:
Toonsters national took over the union because someone used a credit card to buy chapstick toothpaste and cold medicine while going to a negotiating meeting. Toonsters airline division got shut down (it should have, it was horrible) so GU was basically left to run the 'airline' side of the union. He's trying to justify his job and possibly re-create the airline division by getting G4 a contract better than Delta.
The mini base mafia wants this because they sit RSV and fly less than 2 times a month and want to be paid WideBody international rates for sitting on their boats. It's a cake life, no lie. But it's psychotic to think any company would agree to anything near that.
Pilots were promised a 30%ish pay override each month the contract isn't signed. And the reason ALPA failed is because enough pilots believe they would lose that Monopoly Money if they switched from Toonsters. (DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS THE CASE OR NOT FOR PAYOUT SO DON'T @ME)
Contract is stalled 'mostly' (this is old information things might be updated) because of scheduling and scope. Most everything else the company already agreed to with pay being the final key once they 'cost' the contract, and that hasn't been done. Company thinks they can just remove all the pilots and act as a middleman for a Mexican airline that operates into the US. This after the failed SwampSeeker debacle where they lost something like $1 Billion. And for scheduling they want 70% unstacking PBS.
Toonsters national took over the union because someone used a credit card to buy chapstick toothpaste and cold medicine while going to a negotiating meeting. Toonsters airline division got shut down (it should have, it was horrible) so GU was basically left to run the 'airline' side of the union. He's trying to justify his job and possibly re-create the airline division by getting G4 a contract better than Delta.
The mini base mafia wants this because they sit RSV and fly less than 2 times a month and want to be paid WideBody international rates for sitting on their boats. It's a cake life, no lie. But it's psychotic to think any company would agree to anything near that.
Pilots were promised a 30%ish pay override each month the contract isn't signed. And the reason ALPA failed is because enough pilots believe they would lose that Monopoly Money if they switched from Toonsters. (DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS THE CASE OR NOT FOR PAYOUT SO DON'T @ME)
Contract is stalled 'mostly' (this is old information things might be updated) because of scheduling and scope. Most everything else the company already agreed to with pay being the final key once they 'cost' the contract, and that hasn't been done. Company thinks they can just remove all the pilots and act as a middleman for a Mexican airline that operates into the US. This after the failed SwampSeeker debacle where they lost something like $1 Billion. And for scheduling they want 70% unstacking PBS.
my real question is how long for a contract once RJ and Slate get elected? I’d imagine it comes fairly quick
11-04-2025 | 07:01 AM
#3072
On Reserve
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 24
Likes: 8
allegedly he’s been getting phone calls from management telling him they need him to win and so the company can get what they want at the table. How would that sit with you if it’s true? You can’t argue that he isn’t making the same arguments the company is for unstacking now and telling guys we should abandon that ask.
11-04-2025 | 07:42 AM
#3073
FO
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 182
Likes: 1
[QUOTE=Hightime80;3966613]pretty quick bc he’s already out there acting as an apologist for the company rationalizing why we don’t deserve what the rest of the industry has?
allegedly he’s been getting phone calls from management telling him they need him to win and so the company can get what they want at the table. How would that sit with you if it’s true? You can’t argue that he isn’t making the same arguments the company is for unstacking now and telling guys we should abandon that ask.[/
so we sit at a standstill for how long? Clearly an impasse isn’t going to happen. The amount of money everyone has and still is losing out on bc of this wild hope to have a scheduling software that’s “industry standard.” You do realize we would be forcing them into overnights if we push it too far?
allegedly he’s been getting phone calls from management telling him they need him to win and so the company can get what they want at the table. How would that sit with you if it’s true? You can’t argue that he isn’t making the same arguments the company is for unstacking now and telling guys we should abandon that ask.[/
so we sit at a standstill for how long? Clearly an impasse isn’t going to happen. The amount of money everyone has and still is losing out on bc of this wild hope to have a scheduling software that’s “industry standard.” You do realize we would be forcing them into overnights if we push it too far?
11-04-2025 | 11:18 AM
#3074
On Reserve
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 24
Likes: 8
[QUOTE=jimmy8;3966636]
How do you know that, any of that? First mediation can’t and won’t continue forever. Our ask isn’t unreasonable, so we will get released eventually. Maury famously said he considers how long it’ll take for us to get released in deciding when to sign a contract…so no matter who is on the eboard they will be fighting the clock. We are better to maintain reasonable industry standard asks than to start backsliding. That would only embolden the company and look as if we aren’t negotiating in good faith to the mediator. Second that’s total bs and a company talking point. Do you know how much money the company saves by not having overnights? Definitely more than a modest uptick in staffing! It will simply cause the company to make more efficient trips and possibly increasing staffing. Those unstack numbers were previously evaluated by the union and experts. They ran months of test bids using actual data and it was shown to the company. They company simply wants greater unstacking so they have more flexibility. The threat of overnight is a classic threat they used in the past as well. They don’t bring us home at night to be nice, if it was cheaper to put us in hotels they would! Think gate fees and AC parking, outstation mx costs, hotels. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Not to mention what it would do to attrition and hiring.
pretty quick bc he’s already out there acting as an apologist for the company rationalizing why we don’t deserve what the rest of the industry has?
allegedly he’s been getting phone calls from management telling him they need him to win and so the company can get what they want at the table. How would that sit with you if it’s true? You can’t argue that he isn’t making the same arguments the company is for unstacking now and telling guys we should abandon that ask.[/
so we sit at a standstill for how long? Clearly an impasse isn’t going to happen. The amount of money everyone has and still is losing out on bc of this wild hope to have a scheduling software that’s “industry standard.” You do realize we would be forcing them into overnights if we push it too far?
allegedly he’s been getting phone calls from management telling him they need him to win and so the company can get what they want at the table. How would that sit with you if it’s true? You can’t argue that he isn’t making the same arguments the company is for unstacking now and telling guys we should abandon that ask.[/
so we sit at a standstill for how long? Clearly an impasse isn’t going to happen. The amount of money everyone has and still is losing out on bc of this wild hope to have a scheduling software that’s “industry standard.” You do realize we would be forcing them into overnights if we push it too far?
11-04-2025 | 12:07 PM
#3075
On Reserve
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 166
Likes: 8
[QUOTE=Hightime80;3966690]
How do you know that, any of that? First mediation can’t and won’t continue forever. Our ask isn’t unreasonable, so we will get released eventually. Maury famously said he considers how long it’ll take for us to get released in deciding when to sign a contract…so no matter who is on the eboard they will be fighting the clock. We are better to maintain reasonable industry standard asks than to start backsliding. That would only embolden the company and look as if we aren’t negotiating in good faith to the mediator. Second that’s total bs and a company talking point. Do you know how much money the company saves by not having overnights? Definitely more than a modest uptick in staffing! It will simply cause the company to make more efficient trips and possibly increasing staffing. Those unstack numbers were previously evaluated by the union and experts. They ran months of test bids using actual data and it was shown to the company. They company simply wants greater unstacking so they have more flexibility. The threat of overnight is a classic threat they used in the past as well. They don’t bring us home at night to be nice, if it was cheaper to put us in hotels they would! Think gate fees and AC parking, outstation mx costs, hotels. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Not to mention what it would do to attrition and hiring.
Now that was a ROLLERCOASTER! It started out with some crap that isn't remotely true then swerved into something more reasonable and accurate to finish. Mediation doesn't ever have to end.....like ever. The NC will just be put 'on ice' while their proffers are ignored. And I LOVE the fact they tried to spin it like "no answer is still a good answer". No, no answer is lost wages and insurance for every pilot. You're "ASK" is unreasonable, you want to fly 2 days a month and pocket $500k a year to sit on your boat in a minibase. The term industry standard is thrown around like you are owed something. If you want industry standard go to a real airline and not one that hires failed CFIs and non-citizens because it can't hire a qualified pilot. ULLCs are not MAINLINE! Your true peers are Spirit Frontier Avelo and Breeze. PBS or CBI doesn't much matter, the company will adjust scheduling and staffing around their ever so precious 'peak days' so it makes a profit. Overnights or not.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
How do you know that, any of that? First mediation can’t and won’t continue forever. Our ask isn’t unreasonable, so we will get released eventually. Maury famously said he considers how long it’ll take for us to get released in deciding when to sign a contract…so no matter who is on the eboard they will be fighting the clock. We are better to maintain reasonable industry standard asks than to start backsliding. That would only embolden the company and look as if we aren’t negotiating in good faith to the mediator. Second that’s total bs and a company talking point. Do you know how much money the company saves by not having overnights? Definitely more than a modest uptick in staffing! It will simply cause the company to make more efficient trips and possibly increasing staffing. Those unstack numbers were previously evaluated by the union and experts. They ran months of test bids using actual data and it was shown to the company. They company simply wants greater unstacking so they have more flexibility. The threat of overnight is a classic threat they used in the past as well. They don’t bring us home at night to be nice, if it was cheaper to put us in hotels they would! Think gate fees and AC parking, outstation mx costs, hotels. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Not to mention what it would do to attrition and hiring.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
11-04-2025 | 12:21 PM
#3076
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 455
Likes: 33
From: MD80 CA
[QUOTE=CptGSXR;3966713]
Now that was a ROLLERCOASTER! It started out with some crap that isn't remotely true then swerved into something more reasonable and accurate to finish. Mediation doesn't ever have to end.....like ever. The NC will just be put 'on ice' while their proffers are ignored. And I LOVE the fact they tried to spin it like "no answer is still a good answer". No, no answer is lost wages and insurance for every pilot. You're "ASK" is unreasonable, you want to fly 2 days a month and pocket $500k a year to sit on your boat in a minibase. The term industry standard is thrown around like you are owed something. If you want industry standard go to a real airline and not one that hires failed CFIs and non-citizens because it can't hire a qualified pilot. ULLCs are not MAINLINE! Your true peers are Spirit Frontier Avelo and Breeze. PBS or CBI doesn't much matter, the company will adjust scheduling and staffing around their ever so precious 'peak days' so it makes a profit. Overnights or not.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
Wow this is some Management spin. Guys just accept you are worth less because we are less, but we as upper management we deserve top compensation because we are the industries best management team on earth, but remember pilots we are not so good to run the company to pay you what the market says your worth. Employees need to stay in their lane and remember their only worth is to make the company and us more and more money making us look good doing that off your back with lower quality of life, pay and benefits. In the long run this is really better for all of us trust us.
Now that was a ROLLERCOASTER! It started out with some crap that isn't remotely true then swerved into something more reasonable and accurate to finish. Mediation doesn't ever have to end.....like ever. The NC will just be put 'on ice' while their proffers are ignored. And I LOVE the fact they tried to spin it like "no answer is still a good answer". No, no answer is lost wages and insurance for every pilot. You're "ASK" is unreasonable, you want to fly 2 days a month and pocket $500k a year to sit on your boat in a minibase. The term industry standard is thrown around like you are owed something. If you want industry standard go to a real airline and not one that hires failed CFIs and non-citizens because it can't hire a qualified pilot. ULLCs are not MAINLINE! Your true peers are Spirit Frontier Avelo and Breeze. PBS or CBI doesn't much matter, the company will adjust scheduling and staffing around their ever so precious 'peak days' so it makes a profit. Overnights or not.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
11-04-2025 | 12:30 PM
#3077
On Reserve
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
[QUOTE=CptGSXR;3966713]
Now that was a ROLLERCOASTER! It started out with some crap that isn't remotely true then swerved into something more reasonable and accurate to finish. Mediation doesn't ever have to end.....like ever. The NC will just be put 'on ice' while their proffers are ignored. And I LOVE the fact they tried to spin it like "no answer is still a good answer". No, no answer is lost wages and insurance for every pilot. You're "ASK" is unreasonable, you want to fly 2 days a month and pocket $500k a year to sit on your boat in a minibase. The term industry standard is thrown around like you are owed something. If you want industry standard go to a real airline and not one that hires failed CFIs and non-citizens because it can't hire a qualified pilot. ULLCs are not MAINLINE! Your true peers are Spirit Frontier Avelo and Breeze. PBS or CBI doesn't much matter, the company will adjust scheduling and staffing around their ever so precious 'peak days' so it makes a profit. Overnights or not.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
an Airbus is an Airbus and a 737 is a 737… you wanna sell cheaper tickets you still gotta pay your labor. Talk about reasonable! nobody is asking to make 500k and work 2 days a month. The reason they hired CFIs and non citizens is because the pay and CBA are so ****ty at allegiant those are the only people who would consider coming here…
Now that was a ROLLERCOASTER! It started out with some crap that isn't remotely true then swerved into something more reasonable and accurate to finish. Mediation doesn't ever have to end.....like ever. The NC will just be put 'on ice' while their proffers are ignored. And I LOVE the fact they tried to spin it like "no answer is still a good answer". No, no answer is lost wages and insurance for every pilot. You're "ASK" is unreasonable, you want to fly 2 days a month and pocket $500k a year to sit on your boat in a minibase. The term industry standard is thrown around like you are owed something. If you want industry standard go to a real airline and not one that hires failed CFIs and non-citizens because it can't hire a qualified pilot. ULLCs are not MAINLINE! Your true peers are Spirit Frontier Avelo and Breeze. PBS or CBI doesn't much matter, the company will adjust scheduling and staffing around their ever so precious 'peak days' so it makes a profit. Overnights or not.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
11-04-2025 | 01:11 PM
#3078
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 957
Likes: 17
From: A320 CA
[QUOTE=pipercub;3966715]
not sure it is accepting less, just being realistic with our leverage. the only way to truly get leverage over management at this point is to vote down a TA. management beleives we will vote in any TA that comes our way. management doesn't believe the trustee and his cronies represent the pilot group. the only way to gain leverage is to vote down a TA with overwhelming majority.
we can and will be in negotiations for at least four more years while the republicans are at the NMB. there is no threat of a release. the only way to gain leverage and pressure management is to get a TA, send it out for vote and then vote it down with a massive NO vote.
Wow this is some Management spin. Guys just accept you are worth less because we are less, but we as upper management we deserve top compensation because we are the industries best management team on earth, but remember pilots we are not so good to run the company to pay you what the market says your worth. Employees need to stay in their lane and remember their only worth is to make the company and us more and more money making us look good doing that off your back with lower quality of life, pay and benefits. In the long run this is really better for all of us trust us.
we can and will be in negotiations for at least four more years while the republicans are at the NMB. there is no threat of a release. the only way to gain leverage and pressure management is to get a TA, send it out for vote and then vote it down with a massive NO vote.
11-04-2025 | 01:48 PM
#3079
On Reserve
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 166
Likes: 8
[QUOTE=xiovelrahc;3966719]
an Airbus is an Airbus and a 737 is a 737… you wanna sell cheaper tickets you still gotta pay your labor. Talk about reasonable! nobody is asking to make 500k and work 2 days a month. The reason they hired CFIs and non citizens is because the pay and CBA are so ****ty at allegiant those are the only people who would consider coming here…
You are correct about the crappy CBA, nobody should want to work for sub-par wages. The contention currently is "what constitutes a fair wage for an LLC"? So I basically gave you the answer, tell Maury to go fornicate himself with a wire brush and work at a mainline/legacy carrier. I will provide an example as to why you are wrong about equal pay.
12yr Captain A320/B737 @ LLC (per APC)
Frontier: 270
Spirit : 312
Sun Country: 293
Avelo: 298
Breeze: 280 (A220)
12yr Captain A320/B7373 @ Main/Legacy (per APC)
Delta : 373
American : 360
United : 352
So as you can see there is a vast difference between the two Categories, this makes your claim that all 737/320 pilots are the same and should be paid the same invalid.
an Airbus is an Airbus and a 737 is a 737… you wanna sell cheaper tickets you still gotta pay your labor. Talk about reasonable! nobody is asking to make 500k and work 2 days a month. The reason they hired CFIs and non citizens is because the pay and CBA are so ****ty at allegiant those are the only people who would consider coming here…
12yr Captain A320/B737 @ LLC (per APC)
Frontier: 270
Spirit : 312
Sun Country: 293
Avelo: 298
Breeze: 280 (A220)
12yr Captain A320/B7373 @ Main/Legacy (per APC)
Delta : 373
American : 360
United : 352
So as you can see there is a vast difference between the two Categories, this makes your claim that all 737/320 pilots are the same and should be paid the same invalid.
11-04-2025 | 01:56 PM
#3080
On Reserve
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 24
Likes: 8
[QUOTE=CptGSXR;3966713]
Now that was a ROLLERCOASTER! It started out with some crap that isn't remotely true then swerved into something more reasonable and accurate to finish. Mediation doesn't ever have to end.....like ever. The NC will just be put 'on ice' while their proffers are ignored. And I LOVE the fact they tried to spin it like "no answer is still a good answer". No, no answer is lost wages and insurance for every pilot. You're "ASK" is unreasonable, you want to fly 2 days a month and pocket $500k a year to sit on your boat in a minibase. The term industry standard is thrown around like you are owed something. If you want industry standard go to a real airline and not one that hires failed CFIs and non-citizens because it can't hire a qualified pilot. ULLCs are not MAINLINE! Your true peers are Spirit Frontier Avelo and Breeze. PBS or CBI doesn't much matter, the company will adjust scheduling and staffing around their ever so precious 'peak days' so it makes a profit. Overnights or not.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
cmon brother it’s an apc post not a graduate dissertation on the RLA. Sure in theory mediation can go on forever. However if the union is making reasonable demands a company’s unwillingness to entertain something which is an industry norm without solid data to back up their opposition will eventually be seen and bad faith negotiating. I do believe we have the data and research to show our stacking models are reasonable. And don’t take my post as fluffing the current NC, because they are largely morons being puppeted by GU and Cameron. And yes their attempt to get a proffer was like watching a couple of monkeys try to F a coconut. Your “peer” talk reeks of management propaganda and one thing I’ll give our NC is I don’t believe the company has adequately done a costing of the proposals. We won’t get a Delta contract but they should be able to get close to other majors on the core asks, which are all pretty reasonable.
Now that was a ROLLERCOASTER! It started out with some crap that isn't remotely true then swerved into something more reasonable and accurate to finish. Mediation doesn't ever have to end.....like ever. The NC will just be put 'on ice' while their proffers are ignored. And I LOVE the fact they tried to spin it like "no answer is still a good answer". No, no answer is lost wages and insurance for every pilot. You're "ASK" is unreasonable, you want to fly 2 days a month and pocket $500k a year to sit on your boat in a minibase. The term industry standard is thrown around like you are owed something. If you want industry standard go to a real airline and not one that hires failed CFIs and non-citizens because it can't hire a qualified pilot. ULLCs are not MAINLINE! Your true peers are Spirit Frontier Avelo and Breeze. PBS or CBI doesn't much matter, the company will adjust scheduling and staffing around their ever so precious 'peak days' so it makes a profit. Overnights or not.
Now, the 2nd part of your post I agree with and would defend as mostly accurate.
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