Contract negotiations
12-16-2025 | 02:28 PM
#3101
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 455
Likes: 33
From: MD80 CA
this is where you are dead wrong and it’s difficult to hear: “we have waited way too long to not get a great deal.”
I get that sentiment but it is naive and uninformed. Waiting this long has only DECREASED our leverage and ensured that we will vote on an eventual TA that is below legacy standard. Why? Because we have lost all leverage.
we lost political leverage when Trump won and even more with the IBT lawyer Deidre quitting the NMB (per her linked in page). In other words, we had a better chance of getting released a year ago than we do today.
we lost market leverage when NK filed bankruptcy. Now NK rates will drag us down with the NMB. Spirit Pilots are getting priority interviews at the legacies. And they are leaving en masse flooding the legacy hiring classes.
Allegiant is “over staffed” per management and their actions speak louder. No hiring classes for over a year. That means there’s no attrition and maybe they really are over staffed.
so what does this mean? It means waiting has gotten a worse deal. We didn’t just lose once in a generation leverage when Andrew was the boss. This current NC and Unterseher have lost us enormous leverage as well. They thought Deidre at the NMB, Trump or Kamala would save us politically. They didn’t see the NK reality and how that would screw our leverage when hiring picked by the legacies picked back up or the concessions NK would vote in.
JR, Unterseher, Josh, smiles, etc. they will quickly throw AR under the bus and say he screwed our leverage, but they have killed our leverage just as much if not more than AR did.
I get that sentiment but it is naive and uninformed. Waiting this long has only DECREASED our leverage and ensured that we will vote on an eventual TA that is below legacy standard. Why? Because we have lost all leverage.
we lost political leverage when Trump won and even more with the IBT lawyer Deidre quitting the NMB (per her linked in page). In other words, we had a better chance of getting released a year ago than we do today.
we lost market leverage when NK filed bankruptcy. Now NK rates will drag us down with the NMB. Spirit Pilots are getting priority interviews at the legacies. And they are leaving en masse flooding the legacy hiring classes.
Allegiant is “over staffed” per management and their actions speak louder. No hiring classes for over a year. That means there’s no attrition and maybe they really are over staffed.
so what does this mean? It means waiting has gotten a worse deal. We didn’t just lose once in a generation leverage when Andrew was the boss. This current NC and Unterseher have lost us enormous leverage as well. They thought Deidre at the NMB, Trump or Kamala would save us politically. They didn’t see the NK reality and how that would screw our leverage when hiring picked by the legacies picked back up or the concessions NK would vote in.
JR, Unterseher, Josh, smiles, etc. they will quickly throw AR under the bus and say he screwed our leverage, but they have killed our leverage just as much if not more than AR did.
Couple things the NMB does not care what NK has or even what is being asked for by either side. They only care on trying to move both sides towards a deal. They could care less as to what the deal is.
NK you do know that their even concession contract is better than ours in almost every way. Ok the direct retirement of 8 percent is lower than our current max of ten but theirs is a direct not a match system and they have snap up for both pay and the retirement in two years. (Yes provided the stay around)
The overstaffed is artificial if they pushed flying per aircraft up to 2019 levels we would likely need more pilots than currently on staff.
You also seem to think that at some point in the past the company wanted to put forward a reasonable contract that would have been voted for by the pilots. Based on the fedex flyer and the email from the company that if far far from true. Other than rumors started with the intent to undermined the NC there is no evidence that they have moved toward anything that resembles a far and reasonable contract.
My comment on time is as long as it has taken this pilot group should not settle for anything less than what is disserved..
12-16-2025 | 08:07 PM
#3102
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 409
Likes: 11
From: Capi the Chapi
this is where you are dead wrong and it’s difficult to hear: “we have waited way too long to not get a great deal.”
I get that sentiment but it is naive and uninformed. Waiting this long has only DECREASED our leverage and ensured that we will vote on an eventual TA that is below legacy standard. Why? Because we have lost all leverage.
we lost political leverage when Trump won and even more with the IBT lawyer Deidre quitting the NMB (per her linked in page). In other words, we had a better chance of getting released a year ago than we do today.
we lost market leverage when NK filed bankruptcy. Now NK rates will drag us down with the NMB. Spirit Pilots are getting priority interviews at the legacies. And they are leaving en masse flooding the legacy hiring classes.
Allegiant is “over staffed” per management and their actions speak louder. No hiring classes for over a year. That means there’s no attrition and maybe they really are over staffed.
so what does this mean? It means waiting has gotten a worse deal. We didn’t just lose once in a generation leverage when Andrew was the boss. This current NC and Unterseher have lost us enormous leverage as well. They thought Deidre at the NMB, Trump or Kamala would save us politically. They didn’t see the NK reality and how that would screw our leverage when hiring picked by the legacies picked back up or the concessions NK would vote in.
JR, Unterseher, Josh, smiles, etc. they will quickly throw AR under the bus and say he screwed our leverage, but they have killed our leverage just as much if not more than AR did.
I get that sentiment but it is naive and uninformed. Waiting this long has only DECREASED our leverage and ensured that we will vote on an eventual TA that is below legacy standard. Why? Because we have lost all leverage.
we lost political leverage when Trump won and even more with the IBT lawyer Deidre quitting the NMB (per her linked in page). In other words, we had a better chance of getting released a year ago than we do today.
we lost market leverage when NK filed bankruptcy. Now NK rates will drag us down with the NMB. Spirit Pilots are getting priority interviews at the legacies. And they are leaving en masse flooding the legacy hiring classes.
Allegiant is “over staffed” per management and their actions speak louder. No hiring classes for over a year. That means there’s no attrition and maybe they really are over staffed.
so what does this mean? It means waiting has gotten a worse deal. We didn’t just lose once in a generation leverage when Andrew was the boss. This current NC and Unterseher have lost us enormous leverage as well. They thought Deidre at the NMB, Trump or Kamala would save us politically. They didn’t see the NK reality and how that would screw our leverage when hiring picked by the legacies picked back up or the concessions NK would vote in.
JR, Unterseher, Josh, smiles, etc. they will quickly throw AR under the bus and say he screwed our leverage, but they have killed our leverage just as much if not more than AR did.
AR should've tried to negotiate hard and lock something good down back in 2022 before mediation. He couldn't, then came GU and his gang and they just squandered any chance by putting all their eggs in one basket. Now they're unhappy with the current mediator. 3 mediators, no real progress, that tells you the problem wasn't the NMB.
12-17-2025 | 10:20 AM
#3103
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 957
Likes: 18
From: A320 CA
I have never said the union has not made mistakes. The main one being signing the retention bonus.
Couple things the NMB does not care what NK has or even what is being asked for by either side. They only care on trying to move both sides towards a deal. They could care less as to what the deal is.
NK you do know that their even concession contract is better than ours in almost every way. Ok the direct retirement of 8 percent is lower than our current max of ten but theirs is a direct not a match system and they have snap up for both pay and the retirement in two years. (Yes provided the stay around)
The overstaffed is artificial if they pushed flying per aircraft up to 2019 levels we would likely need more pilots than currently on staff.
You also seem to think that at some point in the past the company wanted to put forward a reasonable contract that would have been voted for by the pilots. Based on the fedex flyer and the email from the company that if far far from true. Other than rumors started with the intent to undermined the NC there is no evidence that they have moved toward anything that resembles a far and reasonable contract.
My comment on time is as long as it has taken this pilot group should not settle for anything less than what is disserved..
Couple things the NMB does not care what NK has or even what is being asked for by either side. They only care on trying to move both sides towards a deal. They could care less as to what the deal is.
NK you do know that their even concession contract is better than ours in almost every way. Ok the direct retirement of 8 percent is lower than our current max of ten but theirs is a direct not a match system and they have snap up for both pay and the retirement in two years. (Yes provided the stay around)
The overstaffed is artificial if they pushed flying per aircraft up to 2019 levels we would likely need more pilots than currently on staff.
You also seem to think that at some point in the past the company wanted to put forward a reasonable contract that would have been voted for by the pilots. Based on the fedex flyer and the email from the company that if far far from true. Other than rumors started with the intent to undermined the NC there is no evidence that they have moved toward anything that resembles a far and reasonable contract.
My comment on time is as long as it has taken this pilot group should not settle for anything less than what is disserved..
if one party is making ridiculous offers for rates and retirement how would the NMB know whether those offers are reasonable or ridiculous if they didn't look at the industry and peer groups? again, anybody who has actually sat through mediation will tell you that the NMB is perfectly aware about how rates and retirement stack - work rules not as much, but rates and retirement absolutely.
i don't compare NK's concession contract to our current CBA that is nearly 10 years old. I compare it to what management has offered thus far, and management's offer is more than 20% higher in total compensation than NK's concession contract when you combine rates and retirement contribution (NK taking a 50% haircut in retirement is shocking honestly). those things matter when it comes to us gaining leverage with the NMB. the only way we will gain leverage is through the NMB leaning on management so the threat of self-help is real. how do we gain that leverage?
what i really take issue with is the stupid Skiles and his last comm about the election where he started talking about the time value of money and how blue skies doesn't understand TMV. that was an absurd thing to say and makes me more convinced that Skiles is a trump wannabe - a blowhard with no substance who thinks he has style. if the union or the NC actually understood TMV and believed that it was a guiding principle in negotiations then they would have advocated for a quick deal years ago. anybody under the age of 45 has lost millions of dollars that they will never recover because of the TMV had we entered into a quick deal, with rates 5% higher than the brochure rates and 15% retirement.
it is just so tiresome hearing pilots talk in silos and echo chambers about "industry standard" rates and retirement and then we have the Union feeding that false hope, creating expectations that will never get met. the vast majority of pilots here don't want to holdout hope for the slim chance that we get a legacy contract and the stars align. hope is not a strategy. a TA that continues us to fly day trips and essentially work part time but pays less than the legacies will get voted in by 80%. but the union doesn't want a 70-80% yes vote, they want a 99% yes vote so they can cheerlead, puff up their ego and get promoted to better and bigger things. that is what Unterseher has been about since he stopped flying at world - he's an ego driven politician that pretends to be a former pilot.
12-17-2025 | 11:07 AM
#3105
Gets Wednesdays Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Likes: 6
are you saying that the NMB doesn't care how management's proposed rates compare to the industry and/or peer groups? how can you say that with a straight face? of course the NMB considers what is happening when deciding whether management is bargaining in good faith. you cannot possibly be that naive.
if one party is making ridiculous offers for rates and retirement how would the NMB know whether those offers are reasonable or ridiculous if they didn't look at the industry and peer groups? again, anybody who has actually sat through mediation will tell you that the NMB is perfectly aware about how rates and retirement stack - work rules not as much, but rates and retirement absolutely.
i don't compare NK's concession contract to our current CBA that is nearly 10 years old. I compare it to what management has offered thus far, and management's offer is more than 20% higher in total compensation than NK's concession contract when you combine rates and retirement contribution (NK taking a 50% haircut in retirement is shocking honestly). those things matter when it comes to us gaining leverage with the NMB. the only way we will gain leverage is through the NMB leaning on management so the threat of self-help is real. how do we gain that leverage?
what i really take issue with is the stupid Skiles and his last comm about the election where he started talking about the time value of money and how blue skies doesn't understand TMV. that was an absurd thing to say and makes me more convinced that Skiles is a trump wannabe - a blowhard with no substance who thinks he has style. if the union or the NC actually understood TMV and believed that it was a guiding principle in negotiations then they would have advocated for a quick deal years ago. anybody under the age of 45 has lost millions of dollars that they will never recover because of the TMV had we entered into a quick deal, with rates 5% higher than the brochure rates and 15% retirement.
it is just so tiresome hearing pilots talk in silos and echo chambers about "industry standard" rates and retirement and then we have the Union feeding that false hope, creating expectations that will never get met. the vast majority of pilots here don't want to holdout hope for the slim chance that we get a legacy contract and the stars align. hope is not a strategy. a TA that continues us to fly day trips and essentially work part time but pays less than the legacies will get voted in by 80%. but the union doesn't want a 70-80% yes vote, they want a 99% yes vote so they can cheerlead, puff up their ego and get promoted to better and bigger things. that is what Unterseher has been about since he stopped flying at world - he's an ego driven politician that pretends to be a former pilot.
if one party is making ridiculous offers for rates and retirement how would the NMB know whether those offers are reasonable or ridiculous if they didn't look at the industry and peer groups? again, anybody who has actually sat through mediation will tell you that the NMB is perfectly aware about how rates and retirement stack - work rules not as much, but rates and retirement absolutely.
i don't compare NK's concession contract to our current CBA that is nearly 10 years old. I compare it to what management has offered thus far, and management's offer is more than 20% higher in total compensation than NK's concession contract when you combine rates and retirement contribution (NK taking a 50% haircut in retirement is shocking honestly). those things matter when it comes to us gaining leverage with the NMB. the only way we will gain leverage is through the NMB leaning on management so the threat of self-help is real. how do we gain that leverage?
what i really take issue with is the stupid Skiles and his last comm about the election where he started talking about the time value of money and how blue skies doesn't understand TMV. that was an absurd thing to say and makes me more convinced that Skiles is a trump wannabe - a blowhard with no substance who thinks he has style. if the union or the NC actually understood TMV and believed that it was a guiding principle in negotiations then they would have advocated for a quick deal years ago. anybody under the age of 45 has lost millions of dollars that they will never recover because of the TMV had we entered into a quick deal, with rates 5% higher than the brochure rates and 15% retirement.
it is just so tiresome hearing pilots talk in silos and echo chambers about "industry standard" rates and retirement and then we have the Union feeding that false hope, creating expectations that will never get met. the vast majority of pilots here don't want to holdout hope for the slim chance that we get a legacy contract and the stars align. hope is not a strategy. a TA that continues us to fly day trips and essentially work part time but pays less than the legacies will get voted in by 80%. but the union doesn't want a 70-80% yes vote, they want a 99% yes vote so they can cheerlead, puff up their ego and get promoted to better and bigger things. that is what Unterseher has been about since he stopped flying at world - he's an ego driven politician that pretends to be a former pilot.
12-17-2025 | 11:19 AM
#3106
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 455
Likes: 33
From: MD80 CA
are you saying that the NMB doesn't care how management's proposed rates compare to the industry and/or peer groups? how can you say that with a straight face? of course the NMB considers what is happening when deciding whether management is bargaining in good faith. you cannot possibly be that naive.
if one party is making ridiculous offers for rates and retirement how would the NMB know whether those offers are reasonable or ridiculous if they didn't look at the industry and peer groups? again, anybody who has actually sat through mediation will tell you that the NMB is perfectly aware about how rates and retirement stack - work rules not as much, but rates and retirement absolutely.
i don't compare NK's concession contract to our current CBA that is nearly 10 years old. I compare it to what management has offered thus far, and management's offer is more than 20% higher in total compensation than NK's concession contract when you combine rates and retirement contribution (NK taking a 50% haircut in retirement is shocking honestly). those things matter when it comes to us gaining leverage with the NMB. the only way we will gain leverage is through the NMB leaning on management so the threat of self-help is real. how do we gain that leverage?
what i really take issue with is the stupid Skiles and his last comm about the election where he started talking about the time value of money and how blue skies doesn't understand TMV. that was an absurd thing to say and makes me more convinced that Skiles is a trump wannabe - a blowhard with no substance who thinks he has style. if the union or the NC actually understood TMV and believed that it was a guiding principle in negotiations then they would have advocated for a quick deal years ago. anybody under the age of 45 has lost millions of dollars that they will never recover because of the TMV had we entered into a quick deal, with rates 5% higher than the brochure rates and 15% retirement.
it is just so tiresome hearing pilots talk in silos and echo chambers about "industry standard" rates and retirement and then we have the Union feeding that false hope, creating expectations that will never get met. the vast majority of pilots here don't want to holdout hope for the slim chance that we get a legacy contract and the stars align. hope is not a strategy. a TA that continues us to fly day trips and essentially work part time but pays less than the legacies will get voted in by 80%. but the union doesn't want a 70-80% yes vote, they want a 99% yes vote so they can cheerlead, puff up their ego and get promoted to better and bigger things. that is what Unterseher has been about since he stopped flying at world - he's an ego driven politician that pretends to be a former pilot.
if one party is making ridiculous offers for rates and retirement how would the NMB know whether those offers are reasonable or ridiculous if they didn't look at the industry and peer groups? again, anybody who has actually sat through mediation will tell you that the NMB is perfectly aware about how rates and retirement stack - work rules not as much, but rates and retirement absolutely.
i don't compare NK's concession contract to our current CBA that is nearly 10 years old. I compare it to what management has offered thus far, and management's offer is more than 20% higher in total compensation than NK's concession contract when you combine rates and retirement contribution (NK taking a 50% haircut in retirement is shocking honestly). those things matter when it comes to us gaining leverage with the NMB. the only way we will gain leverage is through the NMB leaning on management so the threat of self-help is real. how do we gain that leverage?
what i really take issue with is the stupid Skiles and his last comm about the election where he started talking about the time value of money and how blue skies doesn't understand TMV. that was an absurd thing to say and makes me more convinced that Skiles is a trump wannabe - a blowhard with no substance who thinks he has style. if the union or the NC actually understood TMV and believed that it was a guiding principle in negotiations then they would have advocated for a quick deal years ago. anybody under the age of 45 has lost millions of dollars that they will never recover because of the TMV had we entered into a quick deal, with rates 5% higher than the brochure rates and 15% retirement.
it is just so tiresome hearing pilots talk in silos and echo chambers about "industry standard" rates and retirement and then we have the Union feeding that false hope, creating expectations that will never get met. the vast majority of pilots here don't want to holdout hope for the slim chance that we get a legacy contract and the stars align. hope is not a strategy. a TA that continues us to fly day trips and essentially work part time but pays less than the legacies will get voted in by 80%. but the union doesn't want a 70-80% yes vote, they want a 99% yes vote so they can cheerlead, puff up their ego and get promoted to better and bigger things. that is what Unterseher has been about since he stopped flying at world - he's an ego driven politician that pretends to be a former pilot.
12-17-2025 | 04:58 PM
#3107
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 119
Likes: 6
From: Airbus Captain
The nmb could care less if we got 20 percent over industry for everything or 20 percent below what we currently have. Based on current events they seem not to care at all otherwise the unreasonable ask of 70% unstacking would have already stopped the show. That is not even close to anything in the industry including RJ operations. I would not say I disagree about some of the comments coming out for the slates. I am not sure I like either but it is what it is. The only way any group has or gets leverage is if all the pilots stand up as one and demand a contract that is inline for our jobs. We fly the same aircraft. This company can afford a contract that looks and feels much like the rest. Even if we got the same rates they are getting 15 to 20 percent cheaper just in lack of soft pay. Even if we get things like 5 hour min day most of the flying exceeds that or could be scheduled around that. Yes time is money but do you really want to work another 10 plus years 30 percent below everyone else because that's the best the company will offer. unstacking has to potential to make this place one of the worse places to work. Maybe you were not here when the company was building schedules out to even the most senior pilot with nothing but single days off all month between days on. Or TDY pilots for 18 months straight because they could. If allegiant is to move forward and actually grow and be sustainable they must produce a contract that pilots will be willing to come here for and to stay here for.
12-17-2025 | 06:24 PM
#3108
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 455
Likes: 33
From: MD80 CA
I should as giving the company nearly zero restrictions on line building will destroy quality of life. You will not have any control as to what days off you get unless you are super senor. Must work days will seem like an amazing option we had compared to that. Imagine many bases in the summer and busy months with zero weekends off for 70 percent of the pilot sound fun?
12-17-2025 | 06:43 PM
#3109
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 119
Likes: 6
From: Airbus Captain
I should as giving the company nearly zero restrictions on line building will destroy quality of life. You will not have any control as to what days off you get unless you are super senor. Must work days will seem like an amazing option we had compared to that. Imagine many bases in the summer and busy months with zero weekends off for 70 percent of the pilot sound fun?
12-17-2025 | 06:56 PM
#3110
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 957
Likes: 18
From: A320 CA
I should as giving the company nearly zero restrictions on line building will destroy quality of life. You will not have any control as to what days off you get unless you are super senor. Must work days will seem like an amazing option we had compared to that. Imagine many bases in the summer and busy months with zero weekends off for 70 percent of the pilot sound fun?
how does that make sense? How can the union say that with a straight face? Why does it matter so much to Unterseher, JR, Josh Allen, etc??
because they are terrified of accepting anything less than legacy because it will make them look bad. It’s all optics and politics. Completely self serving.
think I’m lying, explain to me how 70% unstacking is preposterous and akin to slavery yet 50% is the gold standard? Seriously somebody explain this to me because I haven’t heard any cogent explanation from the NC or Unterseher. Or just maybe these guys are using our CBA as a d*ck measuring contest to show that they can get an Alpa contract…
it’s all moot. We voted and blue skies won in a landslide. No need for an audit, recount, or whatever bs Unterseher and his cronies can come up with.
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