Allegiant Air
07-04-2016, 09:54 AM
#3462
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 34
After much though regarding the TA, I'm still struggling to figure out why MG, the execs, and F&H would all of a sudden want a deal done. The rumors are about needing financing for a large new airplane order (more than likely will be more used Airbuses from a place like Cebu).
But the major problem I'm having with this TA is that this is very reminiscent of the fight we had over six years ago with the last pay raise, and I'm starting to think this is their MO, and we keep falling for it:
1. Wear down your pilot group over the course of years, take away stuff, make their work-life almost unbearable.
2. Start a rumor or talk about future growth of this airline, get us thinking that this airline is headed in the right direction. In 2009, this was the 757 and Hawaii talk, now it's a rumor of a large airplane order, and they're going to be...gasp...NEW!!! This airline is definitely headed in the right direction now...
3. Throw money at the pilots to get them to agree to a contract with no work rules. They've been so frustrated that they just want a deal now. In 2009, we accepted an increase in pay with the promise that they would deal with work rules after. Not only did that not happen, they went ahead and just started throwing them out when they felt like it (pref bidding, merlot, etc.). Now, they're locking us in to a five year deal with pitiful work rules.
In summary, we said we weren't going to settle for a contract without awesome work rules, the company made life unbearable, then word all of a sudden comes out about growth and brand new airplanes, they throw a bunch of money at us, we forget about how unbearable it's been to work her because we have money on the brain, so we vote it in!
2009, now 2016. Hopefully we won't fall for it again in 2021.
But the major problem I'm having with this TA is that this is very reminiscent of the fight we had over six years ago with the last pay raise, and I'm starting to think this is their MO, and we keep falling for it:
1. Wear down your pilot group over the course of years, take away stuff, make their work-life almost unbearable.
2. Start a rumor or talk about future growth of this airline, get us thinking that this airline is headed in the right direction. In 2009, this was the 757 and Hawaii talk, now it's a rumor of a large airplane order, and they're going to be...gasp...NEW!!! This airline is definitely headed in the right direction now...
3. Throw money at the pilots to get them to agree to a contract with no work rules. They've been so frustrated that they just want a deal now. In 2009, we accepted an increase in pay with the promise that they would deal with work rules after. Not only did that not happen, they went ahead and just started throwing them out when they felt like it (pref bidding, merlot, etc.). Now, they're locking us in to a five year deal with pitiful work rules.
In summary, we said we weren't going to settle for a contract without awesome work rules, the company made life unbearable, then word all of a sudden comes out about growth and brand new airplanes, they throw a bunch of money at us, we forget about how unbearable it's been to work her because we have money on the brain, so we vote it in!
2009, now 2016. Hopefully we won't fall for it again in 2021.
07-04-2016, 09:59 AM
#3463
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,120
Off the current topic of the TA... Are people planning to attend the Allegiant pilot meet and greet supposed to "Apply" for that job listing on the allegiant career site? I don't see any directions either way, just show up or apply to that job listing to get on their list of attendees. Anyone know?
07-04-2016, 09:59 AM
#3464
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by SkiVasquez
After much though regarding the TA, I'm still struggling to figure out why MG, the execs, and F&H would all of a sudden want a deal done. The rumors are about needing financing for a large new airplane order (more than likely will be more used Airbuses from a place like Cebu).
But the major problem I'm having with this TA is that this is very reminiscent of the fight we had over six years ago with the last pay raise, and I'm starting to think this is their MO, and we keep falling for it:
1. Wear down your pilot group over the course of years, take away stuff, make their work-life almost unbearable.
2. Start a rumor or talk about future growth of this airline, get us thinking that this airline is headed in the right direction. In 2009, this was the 757 and Hawaii talk, now it's a rumor of a large airplane order, and they're going to be...gasp...NEW!!! This airline is definitely headed in the right direction now...
3. Throw money at the pilots to get them to agree to a contract with no work rules. They've been so frustrated that they just want a deal now. In 2009, we accepted an increase in pay with the promise that they would deal with work rules after. Not only did that not happen, they went ahead and just started throwing them out when they felt like it (pref bidding, merlot, etc.). Now, they're locking us in to a five year deal with pitiful work rules.
In summary, we said we weren't going to settle for a contract without awesome work rules, the company made life unbearable, then word all of a sudden comes out about growth and brand new airplanes, they throw a bunch of money at us, we forget about how unbearable it's been to work her because we have money on the brain, so we vote it in!
2009, now 2016. Hopefully we won't fall for it again in 2021.
But the major problem I'm having with this TA is that this is very reminiscent of the fight we had over six years ago with the last pay raise, and I'm starting to think this is their MO, and we keep falling for it:
1. Wear down your pilot group over the course of years, take away stuff, make their work-life almost unbearable.
2. Start a rumor or talk about future growth of this airline, get us thinking that this airline is headed in the right direction. In 2009, this was the 757 and Hawaii talk, now it's a rumor of a large airplane order, and they're going to be...gasp...NEW!!! This airline is definitely headed in the right direction now...
3. Throw money at the pilots to get them to agree to a contract with no work rules. They've been so frustrated that they just want a deal now. In 2009, we accepted an increase in pay with the promise that they would deal with work rules after. Not only did that not happen, they went ahead and just started throwing them out when they felt like it (pref bidding, merlot, etc.). Now, they're locking us in to a five year deal with pitiful work rules.
In summary, we said we weren't going to settle for a contract without awesome work rules, the company made life unbearable, then word all of a sudden comes out about growth and brand new airplanes, they throw a bunch of money at us, we forget about how unbearable it's been to work her because we have money on the brain, so we vote it in!
2009, now 2016. Hopefully we won't fall for it again in 2021.
07-04-2016, 10:09 AM
#3466
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
I understand the idea that we have weak work rules on this TA. Bear in mind what we do get beyond the pay.
Here is what I will get beyond pay...
4 weeks vacation
Around 150 hours sick time in year one
10% 401k
Solid merger protection
Scope
200% Mission Mode (and the ability to pick it up again now that we have a TA)
Home Study pay
12 guaranteed days off 9 months of the year
Better and cheaper insurance
Lineholder can't be placed on reserve
Band system gone
Keep 130% override after 81 hours
2/1 trip rigs
4hr min pay overnights
Training Pay now 4 hours instead of $80
Profit Sharing
Look I get that our work rules are bad in many places, but I'm tired of hearing it's all pay and no work rules. There are indeed benefits beyond pay so this is not the same as our buy out to reject ALPA.
Here is what I will get beyond pay...
4 weeks vacation
Around 150 hours sick time in year one
10% 401k
Solid merger protection
Scope
200% Mission Mode (and the ability to pick it up again now that we have a TA)
Home Study pay
12 guaranteed days off 9 months of the year
Better and cheaper insurance
Lineholder can't be placed on reserve
Band system gone
Keep 130% override after 81 hours
2/1 trip rigs
4hr min pay overnights
Training Pay now 4 hours instead of $80
Profit Sharing
Look I get that our work rules are bad in many places, but I'm tired of hearing it's all pay and no work rules. There are indeed benefits beyond pay so this is not the same as our buy out to reject ALPA.
Last edited by labbats; 07-04-2016 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Forgot about profit sharing
07-04-2016, 10:23 AM
#3467
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
Originally Posted by labbats
I understand the idea that we have weak work rules on this TA. Bear in mind what we do get beyond the pay.
Here is what I will get beyond pay...
4 weeks vacation
Around 150 hours sick time in year one
10% 401k
Solid merger protection
Scope
200% Mission Mode (and the ability to pick it up again now that we have a TA)
Home Study pay
12 guaranteed days off 9 months of the year
Better and cheaper insurance
Lineholder can't be placed on reserve
Band system gone
Keep 130% override after 81 hours
2/1 trip rigs
4hr min pay overnights
Training Pay now 4 hours instead of $80
Look I get that our work rules are bad in many places, but I'm tired of hearing it's all pay and no work rules. There are indeed benefits beyond pay so this is not the same as our buy out to reject ALPA.
Here is what I will get beyond pay...
4 weeks vacation
Around 150 hours sick time in year one
10% 401k
Solid merger protection
Scope
200% Mission Mode (and the ability to pick it up again now that we have a TA)
Home Study pay
12 guaranteed days off 9 months of the year
Better and cheaper insurance
Lineholder can't be placed on reserve
Band system gone
Keep 130% override after 81 hours
2/1 trip rigs
4hr min pay overnights
Training Pay now 4 hours instead of $80
Look I get that our work rules are bad in many places, but I'm tired of hearing it's all pay and no work rules. There are indeed benefits beyond pay so this is not the same as our buy out to reject ALPA.
07-04-2016, 10:32 AM
#3468
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by SkiVasquez
After much though regarding the TA, I'm still struggling to figure out why MG, the execs, and F&H would all of a sudden want a deal done. The rumors are about needing financing for a large new airplane order (more than likely will be more used Airbuses from a place like Cebu).
But the major problem I'm having with this TA is that this is very reminiscent of the fight we had over six years ago with the last pay raise, and I'm starting to think this is their MO, and we keep falling for it:
1. Wear down your pilot group over the course of years, take away stuff, make their work-life almost unbearable.
2. Start a rumor or talk about future growth of this airline, get us thinking that this airline is headed in the right direction. In 2009, this was the 757 and Hawaii talk, now it's a rumor of a large airplane order, and they're going to be...gasp...NEW!!! This airline is definitely headed in the right direction now...
3. Throw money at the pilots to get them to agree to a contract with no work rules. They've been so frustrated that they just want a deal now. In 2009, we accepted an increase in pay with the promise that they would deal with work rules after. Not only did that not happen, they went ahead and just started throwing them out when they felt like it (pref bidding, merlot, etc.). Now, they're locking us in to a five year deal with pitiful work rules.
In summary, we said we weren't going to settle for a contract without awesome work rules, the company made life unbearable, then word all of a sudden comes out about growth and brand new airplanes, they throw a bunch of money at us, we forget about how unbearable it's been to work her because we have money on the brain, so we vote it in!
2009, now 2016. Hopefully we won't fall for it again in 2021.
But the major problem I'm having with this TA is that this is very reminiscent of the fight we had over six years ago with the last pay raise, and I'm starting to think this is their MO, and we keep falling for it:
1. Wear down your pilot group over the course of years, take away stuff, make their work-life almost unbearable.
2. Start a rumor or talk about future growth of this airline, get us thinking that this airline is headed in the right direction. In 2009, this was the 757 and Hawaii talk, now it's a rumor of a large airplane order, and they're going to be...gasp...NEW!!! This airline is definitely headed in the right direction now...
3. Throw money at the pilots to get them to agree to a contract with no work rules. They've been so frustrated that they just want a deal now. In 2009, we accepted an increase in pay with the promise that they would deal with work rules after. Not only did that not happen, they went ahead and just started throwing them out when they felt like it (pref bidding, merlot, etc.). Now, they're locking us in to a five year deal with pitiful work rules.
In summary, we said we weren't going to settle for a contract without awesome work rules, the company made life unbearable, then word all of a sudden comes out about growth and brand new airplanes, they throw a bunch of money at us, we forget about how unbearable it's been to work her because we have money on the brain, so we vote it in!
2009, now 2016. Hopefully we won't fall for it again in 2021.
07-04-2016, 10:39 AM
#3469
Gets Tue/Wed and Sat Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 551
Originally Posted by labbats
I understand the idea that we have weak work rules on this TA. Bear in mind what we do get beyond the pay.
Here is what I will get beyond pay...
4 weeks vacation
-That can be nullified due to "operational need" and only gives you 1 vacation slot per week in a base of more than 20 pilots, 1 slot per month in the others
Around 150 hours sick time in year one
-At only 4 hours per month that still lags behind our peers and some regionals AND you can't cash it out
10% 401k
-While decent I'd still have preferred some kind of contribution
Solid merger protection
-Not too bad from what I've read
Scope
-Weak at best...it allows unlimited code sharing and such as long as no pilots are furloughed (there should be some kind of limit there) and it allows for an initial cadre of pilots to be third party contractors.
200% Mission Mode (and the ability to pick it up again now that we have a TA)
-Not too bad
Home Study pay
-FOs only get $35 while CAs get $75? That doesn't seem fair...and yes I'm a CA.
12 guaranteed days off 9 months of the year
-One of the worst parts of the TA right there...12 is already low compared to our peers and they can reduce it three times a year??? Are you kidding me? Should be 12/13 min with NO REDUCTIONs depending on a 30 or 31 day month.
And lets not forget the single days off. If you are awarded 15 days off one month you can get 3x3 and the 9 singles...no thanks.
Better and cheaper insurance
-Looks pretty good as far as I can see
Lineholder can't be placed on reserve
-Thats good
Band system gone
-Good
Keep 130% override after 81 hours
-While good, the min guarantee of 70 for regular line holder and 72 for RSV line holder is unacceptable...should have been 75 min
2/1 trip rigs
-Decent, but semi pointless with how our trips are built. You block 2.5 on a SCK turn and duty 5 hours and it doesn't help you.
4hr min pay overnights
-This should have been a straight trip rig. 4 (preferably 5) hour min pay PER DAY regardless.
Training Pay now 4 hours instead of $80
-This is decent
Look I get that our work rules are bad in many places, but I'm tired of hearing it's all pay and no work rules. There are indeed benefits beyond pay so this is not the same as our buy out to reject ALPA.
Here is what I will get beyond pay...
4 weeks vacation
-That can be nullified due to "operational need" and only gives you 1 vacation slot per week in a base of more than 20 pilots, 1 slot per month in the others
Around 150 hours sick time in year one
-At only 4 hours per month that still lags behind our peers and some regionals AND you can't cash it out
10% 401k
-While decent I'd still have preferred some kind of contribution
Solid merger protection
-Not too bad from what I've read
Scope
-Weak at best...it allows unlimited code sharing and such as long as no pilots are furloughed (there should be some kind of limit there) and it allows for an initial cadre of pilots to be third party contractors.
200% Mission Mode (and the ability to pick it up again now that we have a TA)
-Not too bad
Home Study pay
-FOs only get $35 while CAs get $75? That doesn't seem fair...and yes I'm a CA.
12 guaranteed days off 9 months of the year
-One of the worst parts of the TA right there...12 is already low compared to our peers and they can reduce it three times a year??? Are you kidding me? Should be 12/13 min with NO REDUCTIONs depending on a 30 or 31 day month.
And lets not forget the single days off. If you are awarded 15 days off one month you can get 3x3 and the 9 singles...no thanks.
Better and cheaper insurance
-Looks pretty good as far as I can see
Lineholder can't be placed on reserve
-Thats good
Band system gone
-Good
Keep 130% override after 81 hours
-While good, the min guarantee of 70 for regular line holder and 72 for RSV line holder is unacceptable...should have been 75 min
2/1 trip rigs
-Decent, but semi pointless with how our trips are built. You block 2.5 on a SCK turn and duty 5 hours and it doesn't help you.
4hr min pay overnights
-This should have been a straight trip rig. 4 (preferably 5) hour min pay PER DAY regardless.
Training Pay now 4 hours instead of $80
-This is decent
Look I get that our work rules are bad in many places, but I'm tired of hearing it's all pay and no work rules. There are indeed benefits beyond pay so this is not the same as our buy out to reject ALPA.
-Having to call after a RSV assignment for release while they have up to an hour to reassign you something. Thats not even 117 legal from what I can see. I set the brake I'm done FDP-wise.
-Dropped for IOE (ROE obligation) doesn't limit you to your original trip duty footprint nor can you just refuse it anymore.
-Positive contact is not spelled out very well and many are concerned it's too vague and no better than now.
-Base fleet transition is now a system wide bid rather than base first.
-Equipment lock language is contradictory.
This is just off the top of my head so far. The language is SUPER WEAK. For three years we've been promised a contract we can be proud of and that raises the bar. I'm sorry, but this TA as it stands is NOT that contract and why I'm a solid NO VOTE.
07-04-2016, 10:43 AM
#3470
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by Vegaspilot
And that doesn't even touch on:
-Having to call after a RSV assignment for release while they have up to an hour to reassign you something. Thats not even 117 legal from what I can see. I set the brake I'm done FDP-wise.
-Dropped for IOE (ROE obligation) doesn't limit you to your original trip duty footprint nor can you just refuse it anymore.
-Positive contact is spelled out very well and many are concerned it's too vague and no better than now.
-Base fleet transition is now a system wide bid rather than base first.
-Equipment lock language is contradictory.
This is just off the top of my head so far. The language is SUPER WEAK. For three years we've been promised a contract we can be proud of and that raises the bar. I'm sorry, but this TA as it stands is NOT that contract and why I'm a solid NO VOTE.
-Having to call after a RSV assignment for release while they have up to an hour to reassign you something. Thats not even 117 legal from what I can see. I set the brake I'm done FDP-wise.
-Dropped for IOE (ROE obligation) doesn't limit you to your original trip duty footprint nor can you just refuse it anymore.
-Positive contact is spelled out very well and many are concerned it's too vague and no better than now.
-Base fleet transition is now a system wide bid rather than base first.
-Equipment lock language is contradictory.
This is just off the top of my head so far. The language is SUPER WEAK. For three years we've been promised a contract we can be proud of and that raises the bar. I'm sorry, but this TA as it stands is NOT that contract and why I'm a solid NO VOTE.
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