I would have to say that the career expectations of AA pilots are very good considering they have the largest aircraft order in history and massive retirements coming soon.

 

if you say so

 

Enterprise,
Could you provide the Date of Hires of the TWA pilots flying Captain way out of Seniority Please?
Are they 1988 hires and senior to that flying Way Junior on the list, or are you saying that all the TWA pilots were stapled with a April 2001 hire date and they are out of Seniority flying Captain???
Never seen a seniority list that Supplement CC was modified off of, if you could get one I would love to see it.
Skut

 

Just because I knew you would enjoy ...

 

Actually, the AA greenbook stipulates all pilots seniority is based on "length of service", thus when TWA pilots were offered employement, they should have been straight-stapled as per the contract (I beleive the TWA F/A's were). Instead, during the transition phase the parties agreed to a better methodolgy that protected most TWA captains in STL and stapled the bottom half, including those on furlough. In other words, they got a better deal then APA's own contract provided for and a better deal then the F/A's.

This new seniority list that resulted was the "modified seniority list" and is the ONLY seniority list at AA. Of course, most former TWA pilots last words on their death beds will be "the APA screwed me" and this will NEVER change. It is what it is and that's the way it is. Pointless to continue to beat this horse as not only is it dead, but is rotted to skeleton status, whose bones are scattered about.

 

I found this on a different website. I think we are all interested in what occurs, because we want our own negotiators to know what the others are asking for. Sounds like Parker is willing to do whatever it takes to get his merger, and I want the same deal at my airline. It is the cost of doing business. Some of our guys have used AA's declining health as an excuse not to go for more, or what we actually deserve. Now, since AA is unlikely to plummet to the bottom of the ocean, it is a different story, and a different MANDATE for our negotiating committee. NO EXCUSES.

 

EVERY arbitrator figures in career expectations when deciding an integration. Maybe they don't use that specific word: fine - they use some other word or formula. Who cares. Bottom line, they have always used it and will continue to use it. How else can an arbitrator justify feathering in thousands of pilots from two different groups from two different airlines with different growth/fleet/retirements/etc? APA did exactly what an arbitrator would have done - figured it from the snapshot date based on the future of both carriers from that date on. The difference - and YOU KNOW I ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!! - is that APA called all the shots. UNFAIRLY! But they did it with much advice from arbitrators with the premise of protecting as many APA jobs as they could, while designing it to withstand any lawsuit.

First of all, you didn't own any seat. Neither did I. AMR owned it. So lose your holier than thou attitude about what you "owned" and what you didn't. You didn't own squat, and neither did I.

Second of all, I am exactly 2000 #s from CA upgrade. Who gives a crap? Estimated CA upgrade shouldn't figure into career expectations at all: it changes on a whim and you know it. You could have been a 25 year CA at TWA... what if your airline was downsizing and furloughing while AA was growing and hiring? What should be done then - give you a CA seat at AA and furlough a native? You see, that's career expectations for you. Here is the bottom FACTUAL line, ER: AA today bears no resemblance whatsoever to TWA in 2001. Way ahead on size, financials, routes, fleet expansion, retirements... I could go on and on.

Nope - not one comparison at all. TWA was practically a domestic airline at time of asset acquisition with a few Carib and Europe routes. South America? NONE. Asia? NONE. Far East? NONE. Widebodies? a few 762s and 763s. 777s? NONE. If AMR were that size today as well, I would gladly hand you this argument and say you are 100% right. But that ain't the case and you know it. AA/US is a complete merger of one large airline and one extremely large airline - in fact it is USAir who needs AA more than AA needs USAir. And the arbitrator will most likely decide the integration in the fairest way possible - and yes one of his factors will be CAREER EXPECTATIONS. AA/USAIR is NOT an asset acquisition with AA declaring BK as a condition of purchase.

Apples and oranges, my friend.

I'll close by saying the the entire process of the AA/TWA deal crafted by APA and AMR was unfair. No doubt about it. The ONLY fair way is through a binding neutral. But I'll also claim that a binding neutral would have given you guys something very similar, with at least one of his factors based on - you guessed it - career expectations.

 

I assume most of you guys know this, but the SLI legislation, known as the McCaskill-Bond statute, was signed into law in December 2007 and is codified at 49 U.S.C. § 42112.

If this does happen it will be seen as a merger and will most likely be slotted by equipment. Not to sound condescending, but it was just killing me to read some of these posts.

 

It depends by what you mean by "out of seniority."

IMO, they are not flying CA out of seniority. Here's why: TWA CA jobs are protected under the terms of Supplement CC, which guarantees a certain number of CA jobs in STL based on a ratio of DFW and ORD CA jobs. If DFW/ORD CA jobs go up, so do STL CA jobs. If they shrink, so does STL.

So, in essence, TWA pilots have their own seniority list in STL. A pilot hired at TWA in 1988 carries around a 7500 AA seniority number, and has the seniority to fly as CA but only based out of STL, the protected cell. Otherwise, a 7500 seniority at AA is approx. 2000 numbers away from holding an AA CA position anywhere else in the system.

That's why you'll hear some natives whining about them flying out of seniority. They aren't. They are simply upgrading based on their protected seniority list.

Approximately 1100 TWA pilots got slotted in at 1:8 (1 TWA pilot per 8 AA pilots) and approx. 1300 TWA pilots got stapled representing about 46% integrated, 54% stapled. The TWA Date of Hire cutoff between integrated vs stapled is 1989.

 

You have got to be kidding me! You want this deal at Delta? Managment will sign it tomorrow. My goals are way more then a couple of percent more then our current rates and I think you should set your sights a lot higher also. 3 percent is not going to cut it. Not even close.