It's obvious that you didn't bother reading and comprehending the point of my post.

I am NOT justifying APA's treatment of TWA. It was one sided and the process was nowhere near fair. Was the outcome fair? Depends on who you ask.

What I DO disagree with is that AA is nowhere near the same shape TWA was. Not by a long shot. And no this is not justification for their treatment. But please stick to the facts: You cannot compare TWA's BK in 2001 to AA's BK today. Not even close.

When you guys post out of emotion instead of facts, this is exactly what happens.

 

I hear what you're saying, but not going to happen. A seniority list is a seniority list. When one bypasses recall, someone junior benefits by having the opportunity to return to the line if one so chooses.

Those who bypassed recall did so with certain protections in place. Those include seniority protections.

Not sure of the timeline, but there may be time limits associated with recall. If there is, and these limits are not extended as part of this deal, then not returning could potentially bite them.

TP76, if you're with AA, I do wish you and your entire group the best of luck through this BK. Horton seems like a giant Juliet Alpha and could use a Texas sized Cactus shoved up his back side.

 

Riiight... AA is basically a domestic airline today with just a few Carib and Europe routes, a few 767s bust mostly 757s and narrowbodies.

Don't ever let facts get in the way of emotions!

 

I don't believe the bill that was passed on mergers would have had any effect on the TWA merger. TWA pilots accepted the AMR list as a prenuptial agreement and I believe even had member ratification on the list. At a minimum I know their MEC's voted on it. There is nothing in the new law to prevent a prenuptial in any future merger. If you agree and accept a list its done and the law does not apply.

 

Sorry, but nothing I posted was factually incorrect. TWA pilots with seniority numbers equivalent to junior FOs ARE flying as captains. There ARE protected captain positions for TWA pilots, and TWA pilots DO get super seniority bidding ahead of nAAtives in STL.

The only "spin" on this board is people trying to claim that getting to fly captain at 8000 seniority, GUARANTEED captain positions (something the nAAtives don't get) and super-seniority bidding is a "screw job".

APA designed the SLI so that nAAtives wouldn't pay the price for AMR management ultimately dismantling the newly acquired airline as they had done to most other acquired airlines in the past. Considering all that is left of the TWA empire is around 50 DC-9s and a STL base on the verge of closure, Supp CC was more than fair.

 

Actually Sailing, not entirely true: APA/AMR crafted the agreement and forced it onto TWA as a condition of purchase, i.e. take it or leave it. The TWA MEC did NOT sign it - it was forced onto them.

 

The relative SLIs at DL/NW and UA/CO weren't crafted with 'career expectations', just fair & equitable integration of pilots flying like-sized equipment---and neutral, binding 3rd-party arbitration. US/HP was quite different, but there is no doubting the TWA/AA integration was completely one-sided, inequitable and void of any arbitrated decision (which APA fought long and hard to deny TWA pilots) and resulted in the wholesale destruction of most of TWA's 2400 pilots and their future careers. Only 495 were left at AA after furloughs, FERBs and attrition.

I didn't own any seat? So it's okay for you to replace me on TWA jets, flying TWA routes out of TWA hubs with TWA Captains? Remember your sentence above if US staples you and you get furloughed/displaced. You'll feel exactly the same, my friend.

As far as upgrading, it is very hard to predict the future. If AA down-sizes, comes out of Chapter 11 and either merges or is bought-out, your future upgrade potential will change as well. I take your "AA today bears no resemblance whatsoever to TWA in 2001. Way ahead on size, financials, routes, fleet expansion, retirements... " to mean that AA is better, AA pilots are more entitled and AA pilots deserve more than TWA, TWA pilots or TWA employees did in 2001. Do I have that right? It doesn't change one very important thing:

AA IS BANKRUPT.

Someone else will be deciding your collective futures---either the bankruptcy court, the judge or another airline or even another pilot union. You may think AA is in a better position than TWA was in '01, and BTW your retirements comment was incorrect (TWA had greater % of retirements), but AA is still not in control of its future.

One last retort: your description of TWA being a domestic airline?

"TWA was practically a domestic airline at time of asset acquisition with a few Carib and Europe routes. South America? NONE. Asia? NONE. Far East? NONE. Widebodies? a few 762s and 763s. 777s? NONE."

Do you realize you just described USAirways perfectly (substitute A330s for 763s)? Look at the questions above. One very important distinction, however; this time the 'domestic' airline will be buying AA, not the other way around. We'll see how any future integration goes after AA and their 'unions' so dispicably treated employees from most airlines they acquired in the past. Turnabout is fair play.

 

Wrong. TWA pilots never accepted, approved or ratified the combined TWA/AA seniority list, with Supplement CC provisions. It was an APA/ALPA crafted integration that TWA ALPA MEC reps were almost completely against and refused to approve. APA (with ALPA national assistance) crafted Supp CC then shoved it down the throat of TWA's pilot group. There also was no 'prenup', whatever that is.

 

Total waste of time arguing about this. Opposing views will never agree. It is what it is and 11 years later. If AA and U merge, it will be on it's own aspects.

 

The SLI in the DL/NW merger was absolutely figured in with career expectations: why do you think there are equipment fences? Why was there a 7 year fence around TWA widebody flying for OZ pilots? BECAUSE OF CAREER EXPECTATIONS. Wake up dude! It is ALWAYS figured in EVERY merger - binding arbitration or not. The UA/CO deal has not been arbitrated yet, but they will no doubt figure in CAREER EXPECTATIONS from both airlines when they arbitrate it.

I am BLUE IN THE FACE from agreeing with you that APA's PROCESS was unfair! How many times do you want me to agree with that premise! And yet you continue to re-quote it.

No, you didn't own any seat. I sure as heck don't own any seat at AA. The company owns the seat. And yes, it absolutely was OK to "replace" you (your words, not mine) in STL flying AA jets on AA routes out of an AA hub with AA Captains - because the company needed to fill those positions. Good luck trying to convince anyone that you "OWNED" that flying. You didn't "OWN" that flying any more that I "OWN" my JFK/767 F/O seat.

No, you don't have that right. You are interpreting what I am saying in your own emotional way. I'm not trying to say I'm better or superior to a TWA pilot during that BK in 2001. I'm simply pointing out that our integration with USAir will probably bear no resemblance to the integration with TWA, simply because of the enormous dynamic difference between today's US/AA pilot groups and the AA/TWA pilot groups, financials, and yes- career expectations. AA bought TWA's assets at what amounted to a fire sale. USAir will be MERGING with a much bigger company that it needs. Two totally different deals.

Duh.

I agree with you on everything there except for the "other union" part. That won't happen: both unions will try and come to an agreement, and if they don't McCaskill/Bond legislation will apply.

So what? I was describing TWA's size at time of acquisition simply because you have convinced yourself that AA and TWA are in the same boat just because AA is in BK. They're not. Due to US/AA's size, routes, financials, and career expectations, I fully expect an arbitrator to craft an integration similar to DL/NW and UA/CO. AA/TW was more along the lines of bigger airline buying assets of much smaller airline out of BK. It's not that hard to see. That will NOT be the case here unless AA shrinks itself down to the size of an airline similar to TWA and is broken up into assets for sale.