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Union members to vote on American deal

Old 11-28-2012, 02:46 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Night Hawk 6 View Post
If this is correct, and for the sake of argument we will assume it is so, why haven't the associations acted to get out of the RLA or at least have it amended? People act like this law, written for the railroads in the late 1920's, is written in stone, or sent down from the Lord above, well it is not. All laws are amendable or can be abolished. Remember Prohibition? Unfortunately the RLA gives the associations’ credence and therefore justifies their current organization and therefore power in the profession. It has been to long since the associations put the welfare of the profession ahead of their own struggle for power and their very existence. Even a few simple amendments would help to level the playing field but when asked if ALPA was working to amend or abolish the RLA an ALPA official said” It isn’t even on our radar.”
The idea of an equal pay system, therefore equal labor costs across the industry, has been well received by airline managers at some of the leading legacy carriers. Just think of the savings when you no longer have to try to beat your competitor in labor costs plus if done as projected the contract could almost be perpetual, benefiting management and labor. It is time to think out of the box folks. Is the next generation so absorbed in Ipads and Facebook that they will let this once proud and profitable profession sink even further into the abyss?
The RLA is not going anywhere. As I pointed out in another post i made here there was a recent union attempt to move Fedex out from under the RLA. It was crushed. Airline managements have fought any attempts at changing or amending it tooth and nail. There have been attempts. There are always feelers out trying to gauge support in Congress. Getting both houses to amend the law and the president to sign it so airline pilots can enjoy higher wages is not easy. It may never happen. Congress wants lower fares and in general is anti union, even the democrats. The talk pro union for votes but they don't walk the walk.
I asked this very question of one of the ALPA people who works directly with congress. He said they could not even get anyone to even introduce a bill to amend the act let alone get it out of committee and to the floor for a vote. No politician wants to be know as the guy who gave those damn unions all that power leading to a national strike.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
The RLA is not going anywhere. As I pointed out in another post i made here there was a recent union attempt to move Fedex out from under the RLA. It was crushed. Airline managements have fought any attempts at changing or amending it tooth and nail. There have been attempts. There are always feelers out trying to gauge support in Congress. Getting both houses to amend the law and the president to sign it so airline pilots can enjoy higher wages is not easy. It may never happen. Congress wants lower fares and in general is anti union, even the democrats. The talk pro union for votes but they don't walk the walk.
I asked this very question of one of the ALPA people who works directly with congress. He said they could not even get anyone to even introduce a bill to amend the act let alone get it out of committee and to the floor for a vote. No politician wants to be know as the guy who gave those damn unions all that power leading to a national strike.
The current system of associations is not a union. From my experience and the discussions here there is also a lack of understanding how a real union would work. Relying on the associations and the government has worked so well that pilots can now work 20 percent more hours to and have less than 50 percent of the purchasing power than their fathers did prior to deregulation. If our Founding Fathers had had the same backbone as today's pilots, we would be saluting the Union Jack. In the next month you will see two pilot groups surrender to management tyranny and move the profession another step backwards. Please prove me wrong AA and CAL/UAL pilots.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:22 AM
  #63  
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Interesting thoughts. First of all, I agree with you about the RLA. But then... if you have 7500 individual contractors, how could you call someone going to work a scab? For example, a pilot that bid a schedule and flew said schedule would nolt be taking anyone's flying... There would be no collective bargaining agent, therefore no one to call for a strike. I would think the concept of a "scab" would be rendered null and void at that point because mob rule doesn't translate well to a legitimate job action. FWIW....
You make good points. But here's the good part about union dissolution... just prior to filing papers dissolving the APA, the union could potentially print a handbook for what to do in the upcoming weeks and months. Mail the manual to every pilot, file the papers, and the APA is no more, but each pilot would still have solid guidance on what to do to apply pressure. There could be a period of "no make up", then, individual days of 100% strike, culminating in a 100% strike on a certain day.

It creates some very sticky legal issues, I'm thinking. Who does the company negotiate with? Can someone be sanctioned for creating the "strike manual" prior to APA dissolution? Other oddities too.

Scabs - Technically not scabs, but we know what pilot memory is like w/regards to those who cross a line, and it is a line. If/when the company caves, dust off the APA bylaws, re-form under a new name.

I understand it's a long shot and won't happen, but I see no other way to withhold services, and without that, we are twisting in the wind.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:46 AM
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I hate to say it but I think that if there was no union and enough pilots walked out, the company would just sell off the pieces and top management would shrug and move on to the next throne to sit upon. It just happened at Hostess. It just doesn't seem like TPTB have any incentive to actually see companies succeed any more. Or at least there is no disincentive for them not to fail.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:50 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by AFPW View Post
I hate to say it but I think that if there was no union and enough pilots walked out, the company would just sell off the pieces and top management would shrug and move on to the next throne to sit upon. It just happened at Hostess. It just doesn't seem like TPTB have any incentive to actually see companies succeed any more. Or at least there is no disincentive for them not to fail.
Hostess was a battle of union against union... very interesting when you pull the layers of the onion back. Your mileage.. is different.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:08 AM
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Well if you were to read the "rest of the story" you will see that the management at Hostess has done nothing to alter the company's downward spirial except ask the workers for concessions, which they gave in 2004, to "save" the company. Sound familiar? The current management also were found guilty of jacking up their compensation just prior to entering BK. Now management has gone to their BK judge asking for an additional 1.8 million in additional compensation to "retain management personel" as they dismantle the company. BK is a stacked deck against the workers while the management crooks are ignored as the public is presented with the drumbeat of the uninformed media about those greedy union workers. So who do you respect more, the workers who finally said "take this job and shove it" or management that demands that they be at the front of the line for the spoils of their own mis-managed company?
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Night Hawk 6 View Post
Well if you were to read the "rest of the story" you will see that the management at Hostess has done nothing to alter the company's downward spirial except ask the workers for concessions, which they gave in 2004, to "save" the company. Sound familiar? The current management also were found guilty of jacking up their compensation just prior to entering BK. Now management has gone to their BK judge asking for an additional 1.8 million in additional compensation to "retain management personel" as they dismantle the company. BK is a stacked deck against the workers while the management crooks are ignored as the public is presented with the drumbeat of the uninformed media about those greedy union workers. So who do you respect more, the workers who finally said "take this job and shove it" or management that demands that they be at the front of the line for the spoils of their own mis-managed company?
You are right, but it was the Teamsters that have been able to negotiate lucrative contracts that have driven up the costs at Hostess. The baking process is mostly automated, and very efficient. Featherbedding by the Teamsters have driven up costs, and yes, you are right it was management that allowed this and have been able to continually demand concessions from the bakers. They finally said they had enough. I honestly don't blame them. I am not making any judgements as to their position, and I think it abhorrent that they have been vilified (much like the AMR pilots) in the media to the degree they have. I just find the whole thing interesting, and it is not just what you hear in the media that is "the whole truth".
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:33 PM
  #68  
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AA folks forgive my ignorance since I have not followed your goings on too closely, but I did have a couple questions:

1. My understanding is that your next vote goes down on D-day, Dec 7. Right?

2. Is the note/claim considered pie in the sky by many/most pilots?

3. Is there a considerable downside beside the claim/note loss for the pilots if you vote this down?

4. I've heard one of your line 777 captains came up with an "acceptable" TA plan that looks somewhat DAL/UCal averaged - does this have traction?

5. Do you have "faith" in your management team going forward or do you expect if your TA passes, a hunk of AA domestically will be outsourced?

6. Why wouldn't your Mgmt agree to whatever you wanted simply for the goal of exiting Bankruptcy, getting their bonuses and flipping the bird to AA? Are they really soooo shallow that it is just a johnson measuring contest?
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:37 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by scambo1 View Post
aa folks forgive my ignorance since i have not followed your goings on too closely, but i did have a couple questions:

1. My understanding is that your next vote goes down on d-day, dec 7. Right?
Yes
2. Is the note/claim considered pie in the sky by many/most pilots?
I can only speak for myself i believe it does have value but this is a 6 year contract withheinous sub isc items especially sick leave
3. Is there a considerable downside beside the claim/note loss for the pilots if you vote this down?
The 1113 sheet will be fully implemented
4. I've heard one of your line 777 captains came up with an "acceptable" ta plan that looks somewhat dal/ucal averaged - does this have traction?
Not familiar
5. Do you have "faith" in your management team going forward or do you expect if your ta passes, a hunk of aa domestically will be outsourced?
No i voted no because of scope and sick leave issue
6. Why wouldn't your mgmt agree to whatever you wanted simply for the goal of exiting bankruptcy, getting their bonuses and flipping the bird to aa? Are they really soooo shallow that it is just a johnson measuring contest?
because they can aa has always promoted flight attendants to mid and mid upper management the culture is that an fa is the same as a pilot hence this me too clause
this lbfo2 has pay of 4% then 2% then 2% but when you take away night pay and int'l ovrd $6 hr ca and $4 hr fo it's no raise.
I voted no i believe they need very badly a contract to exit bk for the ipo because the union is still playing this i've got a secret we can't tell you because of the individual confidentiality agreements and the nda i am very worried they will spin off eagle and grow that exponentially
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:33 AM
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Pay -

4% DOS
2% 12 months after DOS
2% 24 months
17-24% 36 months (17% if US still exists. 24% if US is merged)
2% 48 months
2% 60 months
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