Gloriousprofits

I am, if anyone goes to a UPS or FedEx interview with international heavy PIC logged when they were an RFO I guarantee it will not go over well.

Elevation

I had a similar experience logging 2/3 of SIC. I think it's more ethical, but it's not easy to understand and it leads to follow-on questions like "Did you keep records of when you were in the seat v. when you were in rest?". That was the limit of the grilling I got on the matter, but friends who just logged everything that wasn't PIC as SIC got the job.

Also, agree with GP about logging PIC when you're the relief PIC. Not a good idea.

Fillmore Slim

Yes it is. The truth of the matter is that very few actually log their time in a personal log book. I remember checking once and it was all housed somewhere on one of our internal websites. During a 17 day pattern you're typically so brain dead you'll most likely just forget all about it. Fatigue and being perpetually exhausted for 17 days is the norm. Kills your body regardless of what shape you're in.

gopinjr

I agree, it would not look good to a potential employer, but if the RFO is appropriately rated and assigned as PIC by the CA, then they can legally log PIC. I wouldn’t do it or recommend it, but it is allowed by the FARs.

61.51(e)(i)

At the end of the day, a pilots logbook is his/her own journal of their experience. If they feel they can legally back up their entries, then they can do what they want. It’s not everyone’s dream to fly for UPS or FedEx.

sigler

I think we tend to over-complicate things sometimes. The way I look at it (and no one has ever questioned me during an interview, so I guess it must make some sense) is: Is your name on the release as the PIC? Log the entire flight as PIC. Were you a required crewmember in an augmented crew, but weren't the PIC on the release? Log the entire flight as SIC. Were you part of a 3+ crew in a flight that didn't require more than 2 pilots? Log the time you were on the seat.

What interviewers are looking for is an accurate description of your flight experience, and that pretty much does it in my opinion.

gopinjr

This seems reasonable enough. But where in the regs does it say you can log all the time when you’re in an augmented crew? I’m not asking to be argumentative. I genuinely want to know how it’s justifiable from a regulatory standpoint. I agree that a potential interviewer probably doesn’t have an issue with it, and yes, it’s probably been over complicated. But it’s an interesting topic that warrants discussion. At the end of the day, all we have to go on are the regs. 61.51(f) says you have to be at a pilot station to log SIC. Again, I don’t mean to imply you’re wrong or am trying to pick some kind of forum fight. Just curios where the justification from a regulatory standpoint is.

blinkpilot182

There’s a lot of great points on here. This has and always will be a tough nut to crack. Personally I do not log time as an RFO. I would recommend against it for a few reasons that have already been stated on here during this discussion. I like my logbook to match the companies records. Our records at Atlas only distinguish between PIC and SIC. Which makes logging CA/CA flights a pain, but that’s a whole other ball of wax. In any case my logbook matches what Atlas has for me to the decimal point (thank God I switched to LogTen last year).

Worth noting, the only flight time you are required to log is for recency and to meet the requirements of a license or rating. After this 61.51 says “may log” for everything. Now for trying to get a job at another carrier? I would say most folks at Atlas do not log RFO time as PIC, and it wasn’t stopping anyone from getting hired elsewhere.

TL;DR: Log what you can prove.

Cheers,
blink


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Liketoflyjets

Augmented crews all logging time makes ... no...damn...sense

It's only got two pilot seats...everyone can log total time, but the PIC/SIC time is with access to the control IMO

6Badger9

Doesn’t matter if there’s only 2 pilot seats or 10 pilot seats in the flight deck; log the entire flight. If there’s a serious emergency, you’re apart of the crew and you better believe you will be helping with whatever the problem is, no matter which seat you’re occupying. Whether that’s helping with checklists, talking to company, etc...

Just my 2 cents.

blinkpilot182

Clarification from my last post: I do not log time as an RFO as PIC.


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