Atlas Air Hiring
12-09-2014 | 01:08 AM
#9911
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 943
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From: Knuckle-dragging line pilot
A Teamster pension? Um, no thanks.
12-09-2014 | 04:21 AM
#9912
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 172
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From: 747 F/O
Just to be clear, I really like my job. I like the pilot group. I like the kind of flying we do. I like the equipment (although you should NEVER take a job because of a plane), I like the intelligence with which the executive management grows the company, and I like flying freight - boxes don't b*tch.
What I hate - and I don't think that's too strong to use in this situation - is a contract that has many, many serious flaws. And what I hate even more is that the company is so greedy that they have to dig far below this weak contract using underhanded and contractually illegal means to extract even more money, time, and productivity from an already overworked and underpaid pilot group.
In 2013, Atlas pilots flew to 430 airports in 124 countries, many of which were first time operations into a particular airfield. We fly four different variations of the 767; 200 & 300/pax and freighter. We fly 5 VERY different versions of the 747: 400 freighter, 400 BCF, 400 pax, 400 LCF, and the -8, often switching from one variant to another to a third on subsequent legs. We have flown over 750,000 passengers including VIP's, heads of state, troops, fans, and pilgrims. And we fly cars, planes, bombs, and all sorts of toxic crap all over the world.
Delta pilots fly vacationers in only one variant of the 747-400 to 8 cities. Their captains are paid $60/hour more than Atlas pilots and the FO's are paid $40/hour more. Their work rules are far, far better and they have a real retirement that you can live on (Atlas has NO retirement plan).
So come to Atlas if you want to use it as a great stepping stone on to a "real" airline job. Or come to Atlas with your eyes wide open and be prepared to fight tooth and nail for the next three or four years for a decent compensation package. Either way, it'll be an adventure.
8
What I hate - and I don't think that's too strong to use in this situation - is a contract that has many, many serious flaws. And what I hate even more is that the company is so greedy that they have to dig far below this weak contract using underhanded and contractually illegal means to extract even more money, time, and productivity from an already overworked and underpaid pilot group.
In 2013, Atlas pilots flew to 430 airports in 124 countries, many of which were first time operations into a particular airfield. We fly four different variations of the 767; 200 & 300/pax and freighter. We fly 5 VERY different versions of the 747: 400 freighter, 400 BCF, 400 pax, 400 LCF, and the -8, often switching from one variant to another to a third on subsequent legs. We have flown over 750,000 passengers including VIP's, heads of state, troops, fans, and pilgrims. And we fly cars, planes, bombs, and all sorts of toxic crap all over the world.
Delta pilots fly vacationers in only one variant of the 747-400 to 8 cities. Their captains are paid $60/hour more than Atlas pilots and the FO's are paid $40/hour more. Their work rules are far, far better and they have a real retirement that you can live on (Atlas has NO retirement plan).
So come to Atlas if you want to use it as a great stepping stone on to a "real" airline job. Or come to Atlas with your eyes wide open and be prepared to fight tooth and nail for the next three or four years for a decent compensation package. Either way, it'll be an adventure.
8
12-09-2014 | 06:28 AM
#9914
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 963
Likes: 0
From: What day is it?
Why should we negotiate for ANYTHING that is not guaranteed to be there???
Following is a direct quote from our current contract:
"Profit sharing, to the extent there are profits to be distributed, shall be paid..."
Regardless of whether you call it a retirement plan or simply a bonus (because we are such darn nice guys), there is a very real possibility that instead of the insultingly low checks that we now get, there could very well be ZERO to share. As we have seen during these last years of $100 million(+/_) annual profits crew members are lucky to break four figures after tax on their profit sharing check.
Profit sharing is an illusion. The company can make any profit above their $75 million threshold disappear or at lease shrink to the point of being worthless. Eventually, the cost of administering a profit sharing system that nets a pilot a few dollars a year is barely worth the company's time and it sure isn't worth the union's time to negotiate or review for accuracy.
Furthermore, the IBT retirement fund is overextended and we will end up funding a plan that pays more in benefits to retired IBT members than we are putting into it. Again, the money is not guaranteed to be there for us when we retire.
We urgently need to move away from the ancient but fond memories of huge profit sharing checks and into the mindset of a guaranteed, company funded, and employee owned and controlled retirement plan.
8
Following is a direct quote from our current contract:
"Profit sharing, to the extent there are profits to be distributed, shall be paid..."
Regardless of whether you call it a retirement plan or simply a bonus (because we are such darn nice guys), there is a very real possibility that instead of the insultingly low checks that we now get, there could very well be ZERO to share. As we have seen during these last years of $100 million(+/_) annual profits crew members are lucky to break four figures after tax on their profit sharing check.
Profit sharing is an illusion. The company can make any profit above their $75 million threshold disappear or at lease shrink to the point of being worthless. Eventually, the cost of administering a profit sharing system that nets a pilot a few dollars a year is barely worth the company's time and it sure isn't worth the union's time to negotiate or review for accuracy.
Furthermore, the IBT retirement fund is overextended and we will end up funding a plan that pays more in benefits to retired IBT members than we are putting into it. Again, the money is not guaranteed to be there for us when we retire.
We urgently need to move away from the ancient but fond memories of huge profit sharing checks and into the mindset of a guaranteed, company funded, and employee owned and controlled retirement plan.
8
Profit sharing has always been an illusion, regardless of whatever company. You keep remaking my point. Take the profit sharing, make it hard dollars in a paycheck and then go in and negotiate a retirement plan. 401(k)'s aren't the answer alone because they are as voliatle as the markets. They can be an adjunct, but should not be the only component.
12-09-2014 | 06:43 AM
#9916
New Hire
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: CRJ-900, FO
12-09-2014 | 07:39 AM
#9917
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 651
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From: Retired
No. Nope. No way. Direct 401K contribution is the only option I would vote for and almost everyone I talk with agrees. Too much history of pilots losing retirement to have anything that is controlled by someone other than the pilot or could in any situation ever be taken away or lost if that retirement group went out of business. I have yet to hear a valid argument for anything other than what every other airline has.
My point is that pilots are very, very poor at financial planning.
The "valid argument" for a defined benefit plan is the term "longevity risk". Pooled assets in a defined benefit plan of at least 300 participants solves that problem for the individual. 401k programs can only address it by buying an annuity, which is less efficient than a defined benefit plan and has greater risk.
Defined benefit plans have existed for centuries, and they worked just fine until the 1980s and the pillaging and plundering of any plan that was deemed to be "over funded" during up market periods (and they still work fine in Europe, where the rules were never relaxed). Once upon a time the CFO and CEO who underfunded a retirement plan could be looking at criminal charges. Today they just dump it on the PBGC and get a bonus. So the problem is not the structure, it is the recent practice of lax enforcement.
The Teamster's Central States Pension Fund is in trouble, of that there is no doubt. It is also a bit of a special case, and there are many other Teamster plans -- most of which are on solid ground. Union plans by nature have the advantage of not having company CFOs drooling over them. And thus I offer the argument that the problem with the loss of pilot pension plans was not that they were defined benefit plans, but that ALPA did not pull them into the union when deregulation came to pass.
Any pilot basing his retirement planning on what he hears from other pilots at the breakfast table had better like cat food.
12-09-2014 | 08:39 AM
#9918
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
From: B767 CA
The Teamster's Central States Pension Fund is in trouble, of that there is no doubt. It is also a bit of a special case, and there are many other Teamster plans -- most of which are on solid ground. Union plans by nature have the advantage of not having company CFOs drooling over them. And thus I offer the argument that the problem with the loss of pilot pension plans was not that they were defined benefit plans, but that ALPA did not pull them into the union when deregulation came to pass.
12-09-2014 | 08:47 AM
#9919
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 65
12-09-2014 | 11:10 AM
#9920
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 963
Likes: 0
From: What day is it?
I recently realized that I have never heard the word "bonds" in cockpit conversation. Plenty of hot stock tips over the years, talk of the current mutual fund fad, lots of leveraged real estate deals and of course various systems for market timing.
My point is that pilots are very, very poor at financial planning.
The "valid argument" for a defined benefit plan is the term "longevity risk". Pooled assets in a defined benefit plan of at least 300 participants solves that problem for the individual. 401k programs can only address it by buying an annuity, which is less efficient than a defined benefit plan and has greater risk.
Defined benefit plans have existed for centuries, and they worked just fine until the 1980s and the pillaging and plundering of any plan that was deemed to be "over funded" during up market periods (and they still work fine in Europe, where the rules were never relaxed). Once upon a time the CFO and CEO who underfunded a retirement plan could be looking at criminal charges. Today they just dump it on the PBGC and get a bonus. So the problem is not the structure, it is the recent practice of lax enforcement.
The Teamster's Central States Pension Fund is in trouble, of that there is no doubt. It is also a bit of a special case, and there are many other Teamster plans -- most of which are on solid ground. Union plans by nature have the advantage of not having company CFOs drooling over them. And thus I offer the argument that the problem with the loss of pilot pension plans was not that they were defined benefit plans, but that ALPA did not pull them into the union when deregulation came to pass.
Any pilot basing his retirement planning on what he hears from other pilots at the breakfast table had better like cat food.
My point is that pilots are very, very poor at financial planning.
The "valid argument" for a defined benefit plan is the term "longevity risk". Pooled assets in a defined benefit plan of at least 300 participants solves that problem for the individual. 401k programs can only address it by buying an annuity, which is less efficient than a defined benefit plan and has greater risk.
Defined benefit plans have existed for centuries, and they worked just fine until the 1980s and the pillaging and plundering of any plan that was deemed to be "over funded" during up market periods (and they still work fine in Europe, where the rules were never relaxed). Once upon a time the CFO and CEO who underfunded a retirement plan could be looking at criminal charges. Today they just dump it on the PBGC and get a bonus. So the problem is not the structure, it is the recent practice of lax enforcement.
The Teamster's Central States Pension Fund is in trouble, of that there is no doubt. It is also a bit of a special case, and there are many other Teamster plans -- most of which are on solid ground. Union plans by nature have the advantage of not having company CFOs drooling over them. And thus I offer the argument that the problem with the loss of pilot pension plans was not that they were defined benefit plans, but that ALPA did not pull them into the union when deregulation came to pass.
Any pilot basing his retirement planning on what he hears from other pilots at the breakfast table had better like cat food.
The government (read Republican Administrations) turned a blind eye and then when the bankruptcies hit, the "A" plans were broke...and the airlines got bankruptcy judges to let them dump the underfunded pensions on the PBGC (read taxpayers)
The "B" plans, controlled by the pilots Pension committees at the individual airlines took the same hits. One; Eastern, owned almost every prime piece of commercial real estate for about 3-4 miles around O'Hare...they bought it when it was farmland. Problem was everyone needed to cash out now when the airline went through Ch. 11, and the real estate market was dead, so they took another hit.
Central States is not in good shape, others are in ridiculously good shape, well overfunded and strong. You have to meet their standards to get in. And they get the funding payments directly from the company, no arguments.
Same thing with TeamCare, their health insurance plan. Outstanding, relatively inexpensive and very few, if any games. Go to any doctor, they pay.
It would do the group very well for the incoming officers to look at them and report back. I'll bet that the fact sare vastly different than information that was "leaked" a few months back.
Any pilot basing his retirement planning on what he hears from other pilots at the breakfast table had better like cat food
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