Atlas Air Hiring
12-08-2014, 04:48 PM
#9901
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
And back in the day Atlas used to share the profit among 500 pilots instead of 1000. And back in the day gas was cheap, and planes were cheap, and we smoked cigars in the cockpit, and we loaded the cargo ourselves, and we flew open cockpit planes, in the snow, with headwinds, on both legs, sitting on a wooden crate full of coffee beans.
In the 21st century, almost every pilot group has gone to a defined contribution plan consisting of AT LEAST a 15% company contribution - with no employee match required - into a 401k account in the employee's name. Once the money is in the account, the company can not touch it. The employee then chooses the portfolio plan best suited to his or her needs. No other retirement plan comes close to the retirement security this type of plan offers. (And, no defined benefit plan is secure whether it is administered by the company, teamsters, or anybody else. Just ask a retired Delta pilot how the DB plan worked for them.)
Atlas profits will vary significantly (as you have seen) and will never be what they were "back in the day". The company can manipulate the numbers deftly, costs are higher, margins are thinner, and our contract has shaved our profit sharing plan to nothing short of a joke. So, you are correct, profit sharing is VARIABLE. So why do you insist on linking any sort of retirement plan to profits? Smarter guys than us have had this figured out for a while now, and it is a waste of our time and resources to try to reinvent this wheel.
I repeat, you will NEVER see profit sharing checks like you used to "back in the day".
In the 21st century, almost every pilot group has gone to a defined contribution plan consisting of AT LEAST a 15% company contribution - with no employee match required - into a 401k account in the employee's name. Once the money is in the account, the company can not touch it. The employee then chooses the portfolio plan best suited to his or her needs. No other retirement plan comes close to the retirement security this type of plan offers. (And, no defined benefit plan is secure whether it is administered by the company, teamsters, or anybody else. Just ask a retired Delta pilot how the DB plan worked for them.)
Atlas profits will vary significantly (as you have seen) and will never be what they were "back in the day". The company can manipulate the numbers deftly, costs are higher, margins are thinner, and our contract has shaved our profit sharing plan to nothing short of a joke. So, you are correct, profit sharing is VARIABLE. So why do you insist on linking any sort of retirement plan to profits? Smarter guys than us have had this figured out for a while now, and it is a waste of our time and resources to try to reinvent this wheel.
I repeat, you will NEVER see profit sharing checks like you used to "back in the day".
There are a couple of excellent, extremely well funded IBT retirements out there that are controlled by outside actuaries that the pilot group could get into and the company would have to pay into.
12-08-2014, 05:33 PM
#9902
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Where did I say anything about it being part of a retirement plan? I think the profit sharing monies are better in hard dollars in a paycheck. Retirement should be seperate. More companies are trying to get away from defined benefits because they have to put the money in. Anyone who lived through the 80's on have seen how the plans were underfunded, gutted in bankruptcy and dumped on the PBGC.
There are a couple of excellent, extremely well funded IBT retirements out there that are controlled by outside actuaries that the pilot group could get into and the company would have to pay into.
There are a couple of excellent, extremely well funded IBT retirements out there that are controlled by outside actuaries that the pilot group could get into and the company would have to pay into.
Following is a direct quote from our current contract:
"Profit sharing, to the extent there are profits to be distributed, shall be paid..."
Regardless of whether you call it a retirement plan or simply a bonus (because we are such darn nice guys), there is a very real possibility that instead of the insultingly low checks that we now get, there could very well be ZERO to share. As we have seen during these last years of $100 million(+/_) annual profits crew members are lucky to break four figures after tax on their profit sharing check.
Profit sharing is an illusion. The company can make any profit above their $75 million threshold disappear or at lease shrink to the point of being worthless. Eventually, the cost of administering a profit sharing system that nets a pilot a few dollars a year is barely worth the company's time and it sure isn't worth the union's time to negotiate or review for accuracy.
Furthermore, the IBT retirement fund is overextended and we will end up funding a plan that pays more in benefits to retired IBT members than we are putting into it. Again, the money is not guaranteed to be there for us when we retire.
We urgently need to move away from the ancient but fond memories of huge profit sharing checks and into the mindset of a guaranteed, company funded, and employee owned and controlled retirement plan.
8
12-08-2014, 06:18 PM
#9903
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Ex USAF, ex-ATA , currently Atlas Air 747 CA
Posts: 324
Right on the money, DC8. Guaranteed money in hand is worth a whole lot more than imaginary money floating out there in the neither regions. And to the folks heading our way, please understand that these conversations are nothing more than what goes on at any airline. We are pilots and things are NEVER as good as they could be. I've flown on Delta airplanes and listened to complaints. As always, look at all the data and choose the career path that will fulfill you. Earning a livable wage and being content with life is worth a lot more than making a ton of money and hating to get up in the morning. If you can do both at the same time, so much the better. Choose what is right for you.
12-08-2014, 07:37 PM
#9904
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 617
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
There are a couple of excellent, extremely well funded IBT retirements\.
12-08-2014, 09:54 PM
#9907
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
Originally Posted by Talon1011
Right on the money, DC8. Guaranteed money in hand is worth a whole lot more than imaginary money floating out there in the neither regions. And to the folks heading our way, please understand that these conversations are nothing more than what goes on at any airline. We are pilots and things are NEVER as good as they could be. I've flown on Delta airplanes and listened to complaints. As always, look at all the data and choose the career path that will fulfill you. Earning a livable wage and being content with life is worth a lot more than making a ton of money and hating to get up in the morning. If you can do both at the same time, so much the better. Choose what is right for you.
What I hate - and I don't think that's too strong to use in this situation - is a contract that has many, many serious flaws. And what I hate even more is that the company is so greedy that they have to dig far below this weak contract using underhanded and contractually illegal means to extract even more money, time, and productivity from an already overworked and underpaid pilot group.
In 2013, Atlas pilots flew to 430 airports in 124 countries, many of which were first time operations into a particular airfield. We fly four different variations of the 767; 200 & 300/pax and freighter. We fly 5 VERY different versions of the 747: 400 freighter, 400 BCF, 400 pax, 400 LCF, and the -8, often switching from one variant to another to a third on subsequent legs. We have flown over 750,000 passengers including VIP's, heads of state, troops, fans, and pilgrims. And we fly cars, planes, bombs, and all sorts of toxic crap all over the world.
Delta pilots fly vacationers in only one variant of the 747-400 to 8 cities. Their captains are paid $60/hour more than Atlas pilots and the FO's are paid $40/hour more. Their work rules are far, far better and they have a real retirement that you can live on (Atlas has NO retirement plan).
So come to Atlas if you want to use it as a great stepping stone on to a "real" airline job. Or come to Atlas with your eyes wide open and be prepared to fight tooth and nail for the next three or four years for a decent compensation package. Either way, it'll be an adventure.
8
12-09-2014, 01:08 AM
#9908
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Knuckle-dragging line pilot
Posts: 943
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
There are a couple of excellent, extremely well funded IBT retirements out there that are controlled by outside actuaries that the pilot group could get into and the company would have to pay into.
A Teamster pension? Um, no thanks.
12-09-2014, 04:21 AM
#9909
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: 747 F/O
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
Just to be clear, I really like my job. I like the pilot group. I like the kind of flying we do. I like the equipment (although you should NEVER take a job because of a plane), I like the intelligence with which the executive management grows the company, and I like flying freight - boxes don't b*tch.
What I hate - and I don't think that's too strong to use in this situation - is a contract that has many, many serious flaws. And what I hate even more is that the company is so greedy that they have to dig far below this weak contract using underhanded and contractually illegal means to extract even more money, time, and productivity from an already overworked and underpaid pilot group.
In 2013, Atlas pilots flew to 430 airports in 124 countries, many of which were first time operations into a particular airfield. We fly four different variations of the 767; 200 & 300/pax and freighter. We fly 5 VERY different versions of the 747: 400 freighter, 400 BCF, 400 pax, 400 LCF, and the -8, often switching from one variant to another to a third on subsequent legs. We have flown over 750,000 passengers including VIP's, heads of state, troops, fans, and pilgrims. And we fly cars, planes, bombs, and all sorts of toxic crap all over the world.
Delta pilots fly vacationers in only one variant of the 747-400 to 8 cities. Their captains are paid $60/hour more than Atlas pilots and the FO's are paid $40/hour more. Their work rules are far, far better and they have a real retirement that you can live on (Atlas has NO retirement plan).
So come to Atlas if you want to use it as a great stepping stone on to a "real" airline job. Or come to Atlas with your eyes wide open and be prepared to fight tooth and nail for the next three or four years for a decent compensation package. Either way, it'll be an adventure.
8
What I hate - and I don't think that's too strong to use in this situation - is a contract that has many, many serious flaws. And what I hate even more is that the company is so greedy that they have to dig far below this weak contract using underhanded and contractually illegal means to extract even more money, time, and productivity from an already overworked and underpaid pilot group.
In 2013, Atlas pilots flew to 430 airports in 124 countries, many of which were first time operations into a particular airfield. We fly four different variations of the 767; 200 & 300/pax and freighter. We fly 5 VERY different versions of the 747: 400 freighter, 400 BCF, 400 pax, 400 LCF, and the -8, often switching from one variant to another to a third on subsequent legs. We have flown over 750,000 passengers including VIP's, heads of state, troops, fans, and pilgrims. And we fly cars, planes, bombs, and all sorts of toxic crap all over the world.
Delta pilots fly vacationers in only one variant of the 747-400 to 8 cities. Their captains are paid $60/hour more than Atlas pilots and the FO's are paid $40/hour more. Their work rules are far, far better and they have a real retirement that you can live on (Atlas has NO retirement plan).
So come to Atlas if you want to use it as a great stepping stone on to a "real" airline job. Or come to Atlas with your eyes wide open and be prepared to fight tooth and nail for the next three or four years for a decent compensation package. Either way, it'll be an adventure.
8
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